Soriano Rejects 5 years 70 Million from Nats

[geschinger]

Obnoxious? Yeah its obnoxious, but no more obnoxious than the people who took turns calling me an idiot for 3 days because I was pro-risk and thought that if risks such as Irod, Mags, and KRog could work for the Tigers, maybe a few risks (Soriano anyone) could work out for the O's. Playing it safe has gotten us 9 straight years of losing

I'm all for making calculated risks, there is nothing wrong with that. And the Orioles have done so.

Tigers:

Ordonez 75m over 5 years

IROD 40m over 4 years

K.Rogers 16m over 2 years

Percival 12m over 2 years

Orioles:

Tejada 72m over 6 years

Javy/Ramon H. 50m over 6 years

Kris Benson 15m over 2 years

Now the O's haven't made any wild eyed cooky attempts to sign someone like the Tigers have - $140 over 8 years offered to Juan Gonzalez.

Is that the type of risk we need to take to appease you?

If not, then how has what they've done signifcantly different from what Baltimore has done other thant they've successfully developed enough dominant pitching staff and enough other young contributors to win and the Orioles haven't?

[Fan4Life]

I'm all for making calculated risks, there is nothing wrong with that. And the Orioles have done so.

Tigers:

Ordonez 75m over 5 years

IROD 40m over 4 years

K.Rogers 16m over 2 years

Percival 12m over 2 years

Orioles:

Tejada 72m over 6 years

Javy/Ramon H. 50m over 6 years

Kris Benson 15m over 2 years

Now the O's haven't made any wild eyed cooky attempts to sign someone like the Tigers have - $140 over 8 years offered to Juan Gonzalez.

Is that the type of risk we need to take to appease you?

If not, then how has what they've done signifcantly different from what Baltimore has done other thant they've successfully developed enough dominant pitching staff and enough other young contributors to win and the Orioles haven't?

I understand your point, but any FA we sign will be overpaid for what they produce, and that is the same thinking that prevented us from signing Delgado, adding enough to the pot to perhaps sway Guerrero, adding to the pot to get Nomar, and then we have the don't sign anyone that has a been great when healthy but has exhibited some injuries, Thome, Thomas, Ordonez, so what's the magic recipe? Either overpay with $$$, or overpay in trades with players, both have their upside and their risks. Or we can also just decide to rebuild and hope we get some young talent that will pan out 2-3 years out..

[geschinger]

I understand your point, but any FA we sign will be overpaid for what they produce, and that is the same thinking that prevented us from signing Delgado, adding enough to the pot to perhaps sway Guerrero, adding to the pot to get Nomar, and then we have the don't sign anyone that has a been great when healthy but has exhibited some injuries, Thome, Thomas, Ordonez, so what's the magic recipe? Either overpay with $$$, or overpay in trades with players, both have their upside and their risks. Or we can also just decide to rebuild and hope we get some young talent that will pan out 2-3 years out..

The problem is not overpaying if you take a calculated risk on the right players. And while I may not agree on certain instances (Soriano) I don't find that arguments to do so completely without merit.

I do however think it's ridiculous to argue that the Detroit Tigers are successful because they were willing to take risks therby implying the Orioles haven't been successful because they haven't been willing to. Both teams have similar records w/the bigger salaries they've been willing to take on. I would not trade the Tigers recent history in Free Agency for the Orioles recent history in Free Agency.

[Fan4Life]

The problem is not overpaying if you take a calculated risk on the right players. And while I may not agree on certain instances (Soriano) I don't find that arguments to do so completely without merit.

I do however think it's ridiculous to argue that the Detroit Tigers are successful because they were willing to take risks therby implying the Orioles haven't been successful because they haven't been willing to. Both teams have similar records w/the bigger salaries they've been willing to take on. I would not trade the Tigers recent history in Free Agency for the Orioles recent history in Free Agency.

I agree with your comments but probably don't see the Tejada and Lopez signings in the risk taking light that you do. With regard to the Tigers, I think it is the pitching that got them over the top moreso than the hitting. Aren't they the league leaders ERA? I don't know if finding 100+ mph young pitchers are as easy to find as the Tigers make it seem.

[rolliefingers]

The problem is not overpaying if you take a calculated risk on the right players. And while I may not agree on certain instances (Soriano) I don't find that arguments to do so completely without merit.

I do however think it's ridiculous to argue that the Detroit Tigers are successful because they were willing to take risks therby implying the Orioles haven't been successful because they haven't been willing to. Both teams have similar records w/the bigger salaries they've been willing to take on. I would not trade the Tigers recent history in Free Agency for the Orioles recent history in Free Agency.

God, no. Tejada + Hernandez >>> Ordonez + Rodriguez. The difference has been the Tigers' young pitching, which is what I've been trying to drill into a certain poster's head...doesn't seem to be working.

[Fan4Life]

God, no. Tejada + Hernandez >>> Ordonez + Rodriguez. The difference has been the Tigers' young pitching, which is what I've been trying to drill into a certain poster's head...doesn't seem to be working.

Change your drill bit size... I'm onboard...BUT.. what does the Tigers pitching example tell us about what we should be doing this offseason?

[rolliefingers]

Change your drill bit size... I'm onboard...BUT.. what does the Tigers pitching example tell us what we should be doing this offseason?

...Hope that all of our young guns come together? I mean, really, aside from blowing tons of $$ on Zito, Schmidt or Matsuzaka, what choice do we have? The Tigers got lucky with Rogers, but they also got great performances from Robertson, Bonderman, Verlander and Zumaya. Hell, the whole staff. We have the talent, but it's not there...yet.

The other thing is to improve the IF defense and emphasize groundball pitchers. Not that this is earth-shattering or anything, but Chen and Ortiz have to go. Our park is HR-friendly, but aside from that, it favors pitchers slightly. We need groundball guys, and we already have three good ones in DCab, Loewen and Bedard (who had the fifth best rate in the AL, IIRC). Lopez also did a good job of keeping the ball on the ground, and IMO was fairly unlucky this year.

So, we need a better bullpen, a better IF defense (a healthier Tejada and Roberts, a better 1B, and maybe move Mora to LF) and we need Loewen, DCab and Penn to post mid-4 ERAs.

All of which, of course, will magically happen by signing Soriano.

[geschinger]

I agree with your comments but probably don't see the Tejada and Lopez signings in the risk taking light that you do. With regard to the Tigers, I think it is the pitching that got them over the top moreso than the hitting. Aren't they the league leaders ERA? I don't know if finding 100+ mph young pitchers are as easy to find as the Tigers make it seem.

Yep, it is their pitching that is responsibile for where they are today. Their success has very little to do w/their "risk taking" on big money players.

I don't think they'd of been any less successful if they had Tejada's offense in their lineup and Ramon Hernandez behind the plate instead of Ordonez and IROD. I don't the Orioles would of been any more successful if they had Ordonez offensive production instead of Tejada's and had IROD as their catcher.

[rolliefingers]

Yep, it is their pitching that is responsibile for where they are today. Their success has very little to do w/their "risk taking" on big money players.

I don't think they'd of been any less successful if they had Tejada's offense in their lineup and Ramon Hernandez behind the plate instead of Ordonez and IROD. I don't the Orioles would of been any more successful if they had Ordonez offensive production instead of Tejada's and had IROD as their catcher.

Tejada has been much better than Ordonez (obviously, not the same position, but you know).

[geschinger]

Change your drill bit size... I'm onboard...BUT.. what does the Tigers pitching example tell us about what we should be doing this offseason?

What it tells me is that we need to give the young pitchers every opportunity to develop rather than going out and singing 2-3 FA starters.

And if the opportunity presents itslef to acquire more top of the rotation talent we need to be willing to take the risk and pull the trigger.

[Fan4Life]

What it tells me is that we need to give the young pitchers every opportunity to develop rather than going out and singing 2-3 FA starters.

And if the opportunity presents itslef to acquire more top of the rotation talent we need to be willing to take the risk and pull the trigger.

I'm cetainly not in favor of blowing big $$$ on any FA pitching. I think FA hitting is more reliable and if we are going to make that investment, it should be in that area. I prefer to try and obtain Burrell, or Tex, Ensberg, without gving up DCab, Loewen or Bedard. Not sure this is possible.

[rolliefingers]

What it tells me is that we need to give the young pitchers every opportunity to develop rather than going out and singing 2-3 FA starters.

And if the opportunity presents itslef to acquire more top of the rotation talent we need to be willing to take the risk and pull the trigger.

Agreed with the first part, but where will we find top-of-the-rotation talent, aside from within the organization? Get lucky with a Pierzynski-type trade? Or do you mean trading young guys for a guy like Beckett and extending him?`

(BTW, where do you think MIN would be right now without that trade happening? They should commission a bust of Brian Sabean to be placed at the main entrace of the Metrodome. An ace, the second-best closer in the game, and a solid RH starter for a catcher they replaced with a #1 pick stud. Still boggles my mind.)

[geschinger]

I'm cetainly not in favor of blowing big $$$ on any FA pitching. I think FA hitting is more reliable and if we are going to make that investment, it should be in that area. I prefer to try and obtain Burrell, or Tex, Ensberg, without gving up DCab, Loewen or Bedard. Not sure this is possible.

All the names you mention would be at or near thetop of my list.

[erb8472]

I'm cetainly not in favor of blowing big $$$ on any FA pitching. I think FA hitting is more reliable and if we are going to make that investment, it should be in that area. I prefer to try and obtain Burrell, or Tex, Ensberg, without gving up DCab, Loewen or Bedard. Not sure this is possible.

Burrell and Ensberg will both be available for cheap, meaning we wouldnt have to give up DCab Loewen or Bedard.

Tex on the other hand would probably take at least DCab. Although there is a slim chance we could package Benson, Penn and another prospect for him.

[Fan4Life]

Burrell and Ensberg will both be available for cheap, meaning we wouldnt have to give up DCab Loewen or Bedard.

Tex on the other hand would probably take at least DCab. Although there is a slim chance we could package Benson, Penn and another prospect for him.

Then we should be persuing (and we could be) these routes first. I wouldn't give up DCab for Tex. So if that's a requirement, we need to either trade for a promising 1b like Kotchman/Huber/Shealy/Carter or sign a one year stop gap with the idea of making a play for Tex after next season.