Peter Angelos makes a clubhouse appearance

[TradeAngelos]

Look, it may be that the guy has learned some lessons in the last 15 years, the hard way. I'm not going to villify the guy now because he acted like an a-hole in 1997. I'm more interested in making sure that the team stays successful beyond 2012 than I am in reliving what happened in the past. If he's willing now to hire good people, give them reasonable resources and then get out of the way, I'm fine with him in 2012.

Don't disagree but let's give credit where credit is due, to the players, coaches, and front office.

As far as 2012 is concerned, Angelos lucked into (his 2nd...3rd choice?)Duquette who made all the right moves and the rest is history.....of which Angelos had nothing to do with.

I am sure the extent of his involvement this year has been counting the piles of money rolling in from MASN and all the other increased revenue, figuring out a way to not spend it. When Angelos puts his money where his mouth is come back and talk to me.

[SouthRider]

I am more concerned with the type of guy Lou Angelos is since it is apparent he is more involved than his father at this point. The situation reminds me of another Baltimore favorite family, the Irsay's. So far Lou appears to be a lot like Jim Irsay. That is a good thing. Just hope he stays aways from Twitter.

[Ampontan]

I am sure the extent of his involvement this year has been counting the piles of money rolling in from MASN and all the other increased revenue, figuring out a way to not spend it. When Angelos puts his money where his mouth is come back and talk to me.

It would be instructive to know how much the bill was for implementing Peterson's biomechanical testing for most of the pitchers in the organization. He paid for it.

It would also be instructive to know how much the bill was for the new spring training complex. Don't know the details how much Sarasota paid for the structure, but he paid for everything that's in it.

[Tony-OH]

When it boils down, though, losing was the end result of all the problems.

I don't think anyone is going to throw Pete a parade around here, but at least we haven't heard anything about him this year. As it should be.

The fact that by all accounts Dan Duquette has pretty much free reign to make baseball moves is the #1 reason why this organization is heading in the right direction again. Of vourse Buck is a huge part as well, but at the end of the day, the fact is that Angelos has taken a step back since the hiring of Andy MacPhail and it's finally starting to bare fruit.

[BmoreMatt]

I am more concerned with the type of guy Lou Angelos is since it is apparent he is more involved than his father at this point. The situation reminds me of another Baltimore favorite family, the Irsay's. So far Lou appears to be a lot like Jim Irsay. That is a good thing. Just hope he stays aways from Twitter.

I think it's looking good for Lou so far. The players seem to like him and if he does have the influence that we think he has, so far he has been able to let the people around him do what they do.

I think most people agree that Peter never wanted to see the O's fail. He just got too involved and maybe even a little over confident in his own ability to run the team better than a good GM. I think Lou can be a great owner, if that's the way things are going to go, especially if he let's DD do whatever he wants to do and backs him up %100.

Yes, he should also stay away from twitter. I do, however, really enjoy Jim's twitter. One of my favorites was something along the lines of,

I'm not drinking tonight because I'm allergic to alcohol. It makes me break out in handcuffs.

He seems like a much better guy than his dad and I wish him luck (pun intended) I won't hate him because of his father.

[Frobby]

The fact that by all accounts Dan Duquette has pretty much free reign to make baseball moves is the #1 reason why this organization is heading in the right direction again. Of vourse Buck is a huge part as well, but at the end of the day, the fact is that Angelos has taken a step back since the hiring of Andy MacPhail and it's finally starting to bare fruit.

Right. About the only negative thing I have heard about Angelos in the last couple of years is that he may still be protecting a couple of people in the front office from losing their jobs, which reportedly was one of the reasons LaCava didn't take the GM job. Duquette seems to have found a way to work around that, so it doesn't bother me a whole lot.

[Tony-OH]

Beat me to it.

Now back to the heaping praise for a guy who had ZERO to do with the success of this season, from folks who would have burned him at the stake 365 days ago. But they never really disliked him, just ask them.

I would love to dig up some old threads on this topic, to see the stark difference in opinion's about the same person just a year later.

Tony is exactly right, amazing how things change with a few more wins.

Yeah, I think there are some people who definitely have changed their tune because of how good it feels to be an Orioles fan this year, but it's not going to change the fact that Angelos' meddling ways and the culture that he led throughout the organization were major reasons why we lost for 14 straight years. It appears though that he learned some lessons and took a step back, starting with the hiring of Andy MacPhail. I believe that people can change and learn from their mistakes, and although Angelos has never come out and said he had made mistakes, his actions, or lack there of since hiring MacPhail prove he has learned from prior mistakes and now allows his baseball people to run the baseball side.

[Frobby]

I am more concerned with the type of guy Lou Angelos is since it is apparent he is more involved than his father at this point. The situation reminds me of another Baltimore favorite family, the Irsay's. So far Lou appears to be a lot like Jim Irsay. That is a good thing. Just hope he stays aways from Twitter.

Why do you think it is apparent that Lou is more involved than his father? If the fact that Lou made the speeches at the statue ceremonies is your only reason, then I would say that means very little. But if you have other reasons for saying this, then I'm all ears. By the way, unlike John Angelos, Lou doesn't have any title in the organization.

[Guest rochester]

Beat me to it.

Now back to the heaping praise for a guy who had ZERO to do with the success of this season, from folks who would have burned him at the stake 365 days ago. But they never really disliked him, just ask them.

I would love to dig up some old threads on this topic, to see the stark difference in opinion's about the same person just a year later.

Tony is exactly right, amazing how things change with a few more wins.

I agree with the prior threads. However, I also believe you will find that many felt he wasn't a bad person and had done a lot in Baltimore, but that he was just an incredibly bad owner of a baseball team. Has he changed?

Saying that, MacPhail and Duq are the major reason for the (so far) miraculous turnaround. Buck is just as important by maxing the talent level from the majority of those he leads. He wanted 25 nuggets - AM and Duq got him 25 nuggets (actually 50+ but I digress) and we are now tied 1-1 with the MFYs in the ALDS.

[hoosiers]

I have been an Angelos defender for large portions of my time here. I think he meddled far less often than folks blame him for - particularly the past five to eight years. I have posted that PA probably would make major efforts to make a difference in spending $ if it was asked of him by his GM. Blah, blah. I am pretty sure posts of this nature would be relatively easy to find.

The irony here is that I have become less enamored of PA as this particular winning season has taken place. I am not bitter about Davey Johnson, but I have maintained that the firing of Frank Wren was a major mistake. Hard to believe that PA ran off two excellent baseball minds in Gillick and Wren. Anyway, that was a long time ago and the main impact of those firings was to have talents ranging from terrible to mediocre in the GMs chair from then to AM - and that falls at the feet of PA. It starts at the top. PA can hire good baseball folks and urge them to be aggressive in the draft, internationally and in free agency or he can hire them and let them do their job. End of day, the decision making in the warehouse from about 1999-2007 was below average overall, the drafting was terrible particularly between 1998-2004 (save for Bedard, BRob, JJ, Nick), we did not hire good minor league coaches/managers and we did not have anyone capable of building an international presence.

If PA hired poor baseball GMs and was unaware of the disfunction that appeared to exist in the warehouse for so long, it is quite unbelievable.

Finally, while PA can run the Os and MASN to a respectable profit, it is becoming increasingly clear that the Orioles payroll capacity is well in excess of our current parameters. So much so, in fact, that it would not surprise me if Os/MASN profits were in the range of $25M to well over $75M. If profits are close to the second number, then IMO the owner has been short-changing the fans in an irresponsible manner.

[The Rick]

Why do you think it is apparent that Lou is more involved than his father? If the fact that Lou made the speeches at the statue ceremonies is your only reason, then I would say that means very little. But if you have other reasons for saying this, then I'm all ears. By the way, unlike John Angelos, Lou doesn't have any title in the organization.

I've noticed and heard that Lou has been meandering around Eutaw Street before and during games, mingling and talking with the fans. Further, he was sitting beside the O's dugout with the fans for games 1 and 2 of the ALDS. He seems to be taking on the "face of the" ownership role it seems to me. But it is odd that John has a title, and Lou still does not. Nevertheless, I consider Lou to be much more like Hank, while John is Harold (Steinbrenner). Additionally, if I'm being honest, I actually have liked what I've heard and seen from Lou. I'd be very interested in hearing if Tony or others have had any run-in's with him personally and would be able to shed any light on the guy.

[Dipper9]

Don't disagree but let's give credit where credit is due, to the players, coaches, and front office.

As far as 2012 is concerned, Angelos lucked into (his 2nd...3rd choice?)Duquette who made all the right moves and the rest is history.....of which Angelos had nothing to do with.

I am sure the extent of his involvement this year has been counting the piles of money rolling in from MASN and all the other increased revenue, figuring out a way to not spend it. When Angelos puts his money where his mouth is come back and talk to me.

So losing was HIS fault for 15 years, but he deserves no credit at all for this season. That pretty much sums up your thoughts, right? Got it!

[TradeAngelos]

Finally, while PA can run the Os and MASN to a respectable profit, it is becoming increasingly clear that the Orioles payroll capacity is well in excess of our current parameters. So much so, in fact, that it would not surprise me if Os/MASN profits were in the range of $25M to well over $75M. If profits are close to the second number, then IMO the owner has been short-changing the fans in an irresponsible manner.

That is the main issue with me when it comes to the owner.

And you can best believe that number is much closer to the 75, and far far away from 25. And it has been for a few years now.

That money didn't just disappear. Well, it did kind of....

The idea that this team has is constrained to an 85 million payroll because we don't have the money to spend more is a flat out lie, and that has only been the last 2 years we have hit that mark....which is still low for the resources we have with MASN. I mean we don't only own the majority of the rights for ONE team....but TWO! It is comical that the second a RSN deal is signed with any other franchise they payroll took a giant spike upward. No "waiting for profits" or "startup cost" excuses there, they knew it was a goldmine the day they signed the deal.

Look at the payroll numbers from 2000 to 2010. Outside of 2007 we were not even remotely close to that $85 million number. MASN came along in 2006, so what the hell happened in 2008, 2009 and 2010? Even in 2007 it was more "happenstance" with what the final number was and in no way was a result of acquiring long term solutions that upped the payroll. The payroll went DOWN....while MASN profits were going UP. That pisses me off to no end, as it should everyone. No one is asking him to give up money out of his pocket to help this team win, just use the money they make to re-invest in the team. That is what most successful, well run companies do.

To date I have not seen one shred of evidence that is happening, just the opposite. If that changes I will be the first to applaud the move, but I darn sure won't forget all the other ones that weren't made in the past that could have helped this team win.

[Dipper9]

That is the main issue with me when it comes to the owner.

And you can best believe that number is much closer to the 75, and far far away from 25. And it has been for a few years now.

That money didn't just disappear. Well, it did kind of....

The idea that this team has is constrained to an 85 million payroll because we don't have the money to spend more is a flat out lie, and that has only been the last 2 years we have hit that mark....which is still low for the resources we have with MASN. I mean we don't only own the majority of the rights for ONE team....but TWO! It is comical that the second a RSN deal is signed with any other franchise they payroll took a giant spike upward. No "waiting for profits" or "startup cost" excuses there, they knew it was a goldmine the day they signed the deal.

Look at the payroll numbers from 2000 to 2010. Outside of 2007 we were not even remotely close to that $85 million number. MASN came along in 2006, so what the hell happened in 2008, 2009 and 2010? Even in 2007 it was more "happenstance" with what the final number was and in no way was a result of acquiring long term solutions that upped the payroll. The payroll went DOWN....while MASN profits were going UP. That pisses me off to no end, as it should everyone. No one is asking him to give up money out of his pocket to help this team win, just use the money they make to re-invest in the team. That is what most successful, well run companies do.

To date I have not seen one shred of evidence that is happening, just the opposite. If that changes I will be the first to applaud the move, but I darn sure won't forget all the other ones that weren't made in the past that could have helped this team win.

I am just as frustrated as the next guy about the Orioles not entering into the "premiere" free agent bidding, but as I and others have said numerous times, for every big name free agent who has been worth his new contract, I can name 10 that weren't. Spending big on free agents is not the way to build a team, and I'm actually surprised that after seeing what Tampa and Oakland and now Baltimore have done, that people would still be upset about this.

[Dark Helmet]

I've made as many negative comments about Angelos as anyone. But, watching that video of him in the locker room, I can't help but feel good for him. He really looked like he took alot of pride in the players, and was genuine in his happiness for them. PA has done a lot of questionable things, but maybe the 2012 season is the start of something really good. Maybe it's time to let go of the negativity from the past, and just let bygones be bygones.

Side note: I don't want to call anyone out, but the comment about Angelos showing up in just depends, was really poor taste. Like I said, i've questioned Angelos a lot, but to go there wasn't right. I think that comment struck a nerve, because thats basically what my dad was reduced to on his death bed. Just poor taste.