For Those Screaming For Headley

[CA-ORIOLE]

Does this take into account position? I'd like to see how Headley compares to all other 3B as opposed to SS, which is obviously less of an offensive position. It's all well and good comparing a 3B bat to a SS bat, but we all know 3B are generally better hitters than SS.

No. WAR takes into account position.

[lovetoaster]

I never heard that a high first round draft choice and a first round money fifth rounder were enough to get Chase. I thought that the names Machado and Schoop were also kicked around. I know that they wanted a ton for him even before he had his best half season ever.

Exactly. There is a reason he is still in San Diego.

[Malike]

No. WAR takes into account position.

I'm just having issue with some of the posts comparing them by using OPS. I don't think its fair to make conclusions by comparing OPS of a SS and a 3B.

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[RichmondOsFan]

Does this take into account position? I'd like to see how Headley compares to all other 3B as opposed to SS, which is obviously less of an offensive position. It's all well and good comparing a 3B bat to a SS bat, but we all know 3B are generally better hitters than SS.

Hardy is #18 among SS with qualifying PA in wRC+ during his MLB years (2005-12). #6 in WAR.

Headley is #14 among 3B with qualifying PA in wRC+ during his MLB years (2006-12). #16 in WAR.

[CA-ORIOLE]

I'm just having issue with some of the posts comparing them by using OPS. I don't think its fair to make conclusions by comparing OPS of a SS and a 3B.

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Absoloutely, that's where WAR comes in. You can look at them through WAR and/or the separate WAR components, such as wRC+ to help you make your conclusion.

[RichmondOsFan]

Absoloutely, that's where WAR comes in.

Right, and Hardy has a lot of value on defense, comparatively more than Headley. This is reflected in the WAR rankings that I've added to my post above. My initial post was intended only to respond to a specific inquiry about direct offensive comparison between the two players.

Edit: Here is specific info regarding the defensive value I am talking about:

Hardy is #1 among qualifying SS in both UZR and UZR/150 during his MLB years (2005-12).

Headley is #9 among 3B with at least 4000 Innings in UZR, and #8 in UZR/150, during his MLB years (2006-12).

[CA-ORIOLE]

Right, and Hardy has a lot of value on defense, comparatively more than Headley. This is reflected in the WAR rankings that I've added to my post above. My initial post was intended only to respond to a specific inquiry about direct offensive comparison between the two players.

That's fine, but keep in mind WAR is a counting stat that is affected by injury/playing time. Also in Headley's case, his WAR was adversely affected by playing LF (instead of 3b) when the Padres had Kouzmanoff playing there.

[RichmondOsFan]

That's fine, but keep in mind WAR is a counting stat that is affected by injury/playing time. Also in Headley's case, his WAR was adversely affected by playing LF (instead of 3b) when the Padres had Kouzmanoff playing there.

Then it's good to have the separate 3B UZR and wRC+ components to use for him I added the WAR rankings for you 'cause I thought you liked WAR!

[Roll Tide]

Hardy is #18 among SS with qualifying PA in wRC+ during his MLB years (2005-12). #6 in WAR.

Headley is #14 among 3B with qualifying PA in wRC+ during his MLB years (2006-12). #16 in WAR.

Do these number take into account the Headley's home park?

[CA-ORIOLE]

Then it's good to have the separate 3B UZR and wRC+ components to use for him I added the WAR rankings for you 'cause I thought you liked WAR!

I do, but as a tool to make you think and for discussion. Basically what we're doing here. I didn't see the fielding rate stats that you posted when I made my last response, but I think you've summarized and broke down the components very well. We could get into more detail like baserunning and how the park adjustments may still adversely hurt Headley (I think they do) based on his home/away tOPS+ splits etc.

That said, I'd give the edge to Headely over Hardy in value at this point and going forward. I also still maintain that Machado would likely be more valuable at ss that that he would be at third base.

I therefore still mantain that ..... Headley 3b/Machado SS > Machado 3b/Hardy SS going forward.

[Scalious]

OPS+ is nice mesure too. It takes ballpark and league factors (100 is the average)

Headley OPS

2012 144

2011 120

2010 97-about even

2009 102

2008 110

Hardy

2012 81

2011 114

2010 96-about even

2009 75

2008 115

Does this help?

[Malike]

Hardy is #18 among SS with qualifying PA in wRC+ during his MLB years (2005-12). #6 in WAR.

Headley is #14 among 3B with qualifying PA in wRC+ during his MLB years (2006-12). #16 in WAR.

You also have to factor in what we would be losing player wise, before concluding this.

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[Malike]

I do, but as a tool to make you think and for discussion. Basically what we're doing here. I didn't see the fielding rate stats that you posted when I made my last response, but I think you've summarized and broke down the components very well. We could get into more detail like baserunning and how the park adjustments may still adversely hurt Headley (I think they do) based on his home/away tOPS+ splits etc.

That said, I'd give the edge to Headely over Hardy in value at this point and going forward. I also still maintain that Machado would likely be more valuable at ss that that he would be at third base.

I therefore still mantain that ..... Headley 3b/Machado SS > Machado 3b/Hardy SS going forward.

I meant to quote this post, the last line in particular. Apologies.

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[CA-ORIOLE]

OPS+ is nice mesure too. It takes ballpark and league factors (100 is the average)

Headley OPS

2012 144

2011 120

2010 97-about even

2009 102

2008 110

Hardy

2012 81

2011 114

2010 96-about even

2009 75

2008 115

Does this help?

OPS+ is park adjusted and is decent for a quick comparison, but it's actually a pretty bad way to compare these two particular players as it doesn't properly weight OBP. In this case you're comparing a high OBP guy against a low OBP guy. wRC+ (weighted averages) is the way to go.

[Scalious]

OPS+ is park adjusted and is decent for a quick comparison, but it's actually a pretty bad way to compare these two particular players as it doesn't properly weight OBP. In this case you're comparing a high OBP guy against a low OBP guy. wRC+ (weighted averages) is the way to go.

Okay...then it should be noted that Petco is actually a larger ball park. It does not favor Home Runs, But there is more room in the OF then Camden. So I'd like to think it favors your ablitily to get Single/ Doubles and Triples? Or am I completly off base on this?

I realize the Atmostphere respresses balls to a point. But their is certain adavatage to playing in a Larger OF.

I could be wrong on this...