Manny Machado in 2014

[Can_of_corn]

Where did I say they were useless? Counting stats have little meaning out side of context. Elvis Andrus has the most E's at SS most seasons. What does that mean?

That the Rangers should be starting Profar.

[DrungoHazewood]

I mentioned his outs made total in a response to his hits total. He has so many of both because of an enormous amount of plate appearances and zero plate discipline. A .285 average doesn't hurt either.

The all time best MLB seasons by someone who made outs in 70%+ of their plate appearances:

1) Brooks, 1968, 8.4 rWAR

2) Cal, 1989, 6.6 rWAR

3) Manny, 2013, 6.4 rWAR

The O's have a veritable stranglehold on seasons that vex you.

[Moose Milligan]

calmunderfire = backedintoacorner

[atomic]

He's 2nd in the majors in PAs. Dustin Pedroia has made over 450 outs - are the Red Sox idiots for letting him do that?

You know, I just noticed a weird coincidence... everyone in the top 30 in outs has played at least 140 games. Clearly teams need to bench a lot of these guys like Zobrist and Longoria and Prince Fielder so they will just stop making so many freakin' outs!!

Pedoria and Machado both play everyday batting near the top of the line-up on teams that score a lot of runs. I bet they are both near the top of the league in plate appearance... what is concerning is Manny's .313 OBP. Which has been going down for a long time. I think we need a new hitting coach. Presley's carrer OBP was .290. Obviously he doesn't take much value in that stat.

[OFFNY]

I go with OBP. The number of outs is meaningless without the context of PA. Manny has more hits and more 2BH in the same number of PA, but you choose to ignore that because it doesn't suit you demented agenda.

So know counting stats are useless? We can use rate and counting stats.

Where did I say they were useless? Counting stats have little meaning out side of context. Elvis Andrus has the most E's at SS most seasons. What does that mean? BTW if you want to reference a temporal state that is current, the word of choice is "now", not know.

Absolutely.

CONTEXT is important when using and/or referring to statistics, just like myself (and others) have pointed out in regard to statistics like men left on base, and a team's average with R.I.S.P. A team can score 12 runs in a game, and still have a statistic of something like 14 men LOB. Do you then say, "Wow, how inefficient that offense was. They left 14 men on base !!!" ? Of course you don't.

If a team scores 6 runs in one inning, but the 3rd and final out of said inning comes with 2 or 3 runners still on the basepaths, then the statistic for men LOB for that inning will be 2 or 3 ........ which really doesn't mean much, considering that the team scored 6 runs BEFORE stranding those runners on the basepaths.

IMRAOAO, context is vital in regard to discussion(s) regarding statistics.

[Can_of_corn]

Pedoria and Machado both play everyday batting near the top of the line-up on teams that score a lot of runs. I bet they are both near the top of the league in plate appearance... what is concerning is Manny's .313 OBP. Which has been going down for a long time. I think we need a new hitting coach. Presley's carrer OBP was .290. Obviously he doesn't take much value in that stat.

Charlie Lau had a 318 OBA.

Walt Hriniak had a career OPS+ of 71

[waroriole]

Pedoria and Machado both play everyday batting near the top of the line-up on teams that score a lot of runs. I bet they are both near the top of the league in plate appearance... what is concerning is Manny's .313 OBP. Which has been going down for a long time. I think we need a new hitting coach. Presley's carrer OBP was .290. Obviously he doesn't take much value in that stat.

Wasn't Billy Beane the opposite of what he wants, as a player?

Good idea to draw those conclusions.

[DrungoHazewood]

I think we need a new hitting coach. Presley's carrer OBP was .290. Obviously he doesn't take much value in that stat.

Walt Hriniak and Charlie Lau were two of the most respected hitting coaches of my youth. Lau was a tutor to players like George Brett, Hal McRae and Harold Baines, but in his MLB career had a sub-.700 career OPS and never got .350 PAs in a season. Hriniak had 111 mediocre MLB PAs, but was cited as being instrumental in both Brett and Dwight Evans' careers.

I guess everyone was just dumb back then, allowing people who didn't even have solid MLB careers as hitters to teach their HOF-caliber players.

[Camden_yardbird]

One of the best seasons ever by a 21 year old. Extension is exactly what needs to happen. You don't make extension when you know someone will be a quality major leaguer, you do it when you have a pretty good idea they will.

[Frobby]

You are too reactionary. Some guy pointed at Machado's ht totals this year to which I said you can make stats say what you want. As an example I informed him of Machado's relentless habit of making outs.

I have to agree with calmunderfire here. The fact that Manny is close to 200 hits is not very enlightening unless you put it in context of how many PA he has had and how many outs he has made. The people who are criticizing him for using a counting stat are ignoring the fact that he was responding to a post that was using a counting stat, and showing how a different counting stat could lead to the opposite conclusion to the other poster's.

Here's how I look at this: Manny turned 21 in July and is hitting .285/.313/.437 in his first full year in the majors. In 2008, we had a player in his first full year who turned 23 on August 1 and hit .270/.311/.400. That player was Adam Jones. Manny is two years younger than Adam was then, and I expect he will improve at least as much as Jones did over the last five seasons. At the same time, although Adam is a much better hitter today than in 2008, Adam's tendency to swing at pitches out of the strike zone has only gotten worse over time. So in that respect, I do worry that the bad habits Manny seems to be picking up may not get better with more experience. Obviously, every player's career path is a little different, so we'll see. As I said before, I'd still look to lock him up if the price is right.

[atomic]

Charlie Lau had a 318 OBA.

Walt Hriniak had a career OPS+ of 71

.318 is lot better than .290 and Walt Hriniak had an OBP of .333. Neither one of these guys were major league regulars like Presley. Anyway the whole team seems to have a hard time with OBP.

[DrungoHazewood]

Here's how I look at this: Manny turned 21 in July and is hitting .285/.313/.437 in his first full year in the majors. In 2008, we had a player in his first full year who turned 23 on August 1 and hit .270/.311/.400. That player was Adam Jones. Manny is two years younger than Adam was then, and I expect he will improve at least as much as Jones did over the last five seasons. At the same time, although Adam is a much better hitter today than in 2008, Adam's tendency to swing at pitches out of the strike zone has only gotten worse over time. So in that respect, I do worry that the bad habits Manny seems to be picking up may not get better with more experience. Obviously, every player's career path is a little different, so we'll see. As I said before, I'd still look to lock him up if the price is right.

If Adam Jones had been a +10 or +15 fielder through the last five years he would have been a 4-6 win player every year. That would make him among the better players in the game.

Manny, so far, has been more like a +30 fielder. Pairing Adam Jones' offense with a +30 glove gives you an annual MVP candidate. Last year's Adam Jones on offense paired with Manny's glove would have been better than Miguel Cabrera.

So... we all hope Manny improves his plate discipline while holding on to most of his defensive value. Because that just might be the best player the Orioles have ever had.

[Can_of_corn]

.318 is lot better than .290 and Walt Hriniak had an OBP of .333. Neither one of these guys were major league regulars like Presley. Anyway the whole team seems to have a hard time with OBP.

And Crowley has a lifetime 345 OBP, do you think he preached a patient approach as hitting coach?

A hitting coach's professional career as a hitter has little to do with their skill or approach as a coach.

[mark_beckens]

People need to remember this is Manny's first full season. He could be wearing down. It's a long season for players who have done it for years, much less someone who is doing it for the first time. Could also be he's just slumping at a really bad time.

[Can_of_corn]

Clayton Kershaw

Kershaw? Too expensive and not enough remaining time under team control.

I would much rather have Jose Fernandez.