Is there any legitimate reason for Mike Mussina to go into the HOF as a Yankee instead of an Oriole?

[Moose Milligan]

You wouldn't care if it was NY? That would be flipping the bird to the Orioles, no pun intended. The HOF loves counting numbers and Moose had more wins, a higher winning pct., much higher ERA+ with Baltimore, and much of his numbers with Baltimore were with some lousy teams.

Yes, he belongs in the HOF. Period.

He'll have to settle with being the 2nd best in 1999 (lost to Pedro), and in the top 5, five other times

He already flipped the bird to the Orioles once, no big deal if he does it again.

I don't think he belongs. He's got some nice stats but as others have pointed out, no rings, no hardware (except gold gloves)...he was a very good pitcher, for a few years he was a great pitcher...but he was never the best in the league. He had some postseason moments but no one outside of Baltimore has a reason to remember them. It works against him, but he was pretty boring, too. There's no real reason to remember him as an all time, Hall of Fame great.

[DrungoHazewood]

I don't think he belongs. He's got some nice stats but as others have pointed out, no rings, no hardware (except gold gloves)...he was a very good pitcher, for a few years he was a great pitcher...but he was never the best in the league. He had some postseason moments but no one outside of Baltimore has a reason to remember them. It works against him, but he was pretty boring, too. There's no real reason to remember him as an all time, Hall of Fame great.

By that definition you could throw out half the guys currently in the Hall of Fame. I suppose if that's what you're advocating, fine. But an awful lot of household names will get the boot. And lot more would be getting the boot if they didn't play in an 8-team league where hardware and rings were easier to come by.

[DrungoHazewood]

Yes, Seriously. It's all greed, what part of that don't you get? What did he get to buy a third mansion or second Delorean by signing with the Yankees ?

Benedict Arnold. That what he is.

This conversation is over.

That might be a rational argument if the players jumped ship at first opportunity even though the owners gave them lifetime contracts, or if the players got to pick the team they initially signed with. But they don't. The owners draft whomever they want, if the Yanks draft a lifelong O's fan out of school there's absolutely nothing the player can go but go play his best for the team he's always hated. The minute the guy's performance drops the team will release him, no matter what financial or life situation he's in. You're asking players to be loyal and sacrifice pay and choice and what's best for them and their families for no reason other than you want that, and it makes you feel better.

[DrungoHazewood]

It's not the hall's choice. Frank chose Orioles despite just 6 years. Reggie Jackson only spent 5 years with the Yankees. It's up to the player.

It's completely the Hall's choice. The may take the wishes of the player into consideration, but it's all their choice. The Hall of Fame is a privately run museum, they could induct Little Leaguers wearing cowboy hats if the board of directors so chose. Generally they try to play nice with MLB and the players association because its good for business.

[Moose Milligan]

By that definition you could throw out half the guys currently in the Hall of Fame. I suppose if that's what you're advocating, fine. But an awful lot of household names will get the boot. And lot more would be getting the boot if they didn't play in an 8-team league where hardware and rings were easier to come by.

I guess you could say I'd advocate for a smaller Hall of Fame. Mussina isn't a household name, IMO, in the same way that recent inductees are. He's not on a Smoltz, Maddux, Glavine level. He was a great pitcher and I'm not butthurt like others are about him leaving, I just don't see what makes him unique.

[JR Oriole]

I remember in 1996 I think Mussina was in line for win # 20 in Toronto but Armando Benitez blew the save and Moose ended with 19. It then took him 12 more years to finally win 20. Of course Moose was easily the most dominant player in the 1997 playoffs, but was once again stymied by Armando Benitez (with an assist from Palmeiro who could not buy a single clutch hit in that ALCS). Had we gotten to the World Series and by chance won it, Moose would be looked at very differently. What may hurt guys like him is just the lack of memorable moments, which often happen in October. The Yankees won the World Series in each of the two years that bookended his Yankee tenure and they won none during his tenure. In fact, 2001 - 2008 was a relatively dark time for the Yankees because they lost a gut wrenching 7th game to Arizona, got beat by Josh Beckett in their own park in 2003, and blew the 2004 ALCS to the Sox. He was there for all of that. All of that being said, I don't see Mussina as a HOFer. I will remember him as a guy who as really good as he was, actually was never as great as I expected him to be with that sick arsenal of pitches.

[BMann]

By that definition you could throw out half the guys currently in the Hall of Fame. I suppose if that's what you're advocating, fine. But an awful lot of household names will get the boot. And lot more would be getting the boot if they didn't play in an 8-team league where hardware and rings were easier to come by.

Looking at guys inducted in the last 20 years or so by the BBWAA, there really aren't many who haven't at least won a WS, MVP, or Cy Young. And those who don't have one of those on their resume have a significant advantage over Mussina (Sutton and Niekro have 300-plus wins; Fisk has 11 All-Star appearances to MM's 5; Sandberg was a 10-time AS).

Mussina's resume is lacking some key elements that I think will keep him out, at least for a while.

As others have noted, I really don't care if he goes in as a Yankee, an Oriole, or a Montoursville Warrior. He was dead to me the minute he put on that hideous NY hat.

[Moose Milligan]

I remember in 1996 I think Mussina was in line for win # 20 in Toronto but Armando Benitez blew the save and Moose ended with 19. It then took him 12 more years to finally win 20. Of course Moose was easily the most dominant player in the 1997 playoffs, but was once again stymied by Armando Benitez (with an assist from Palmeiro who could not buy a single clutch hit in that ALCS). Had we gotten to the World Series and by chance won it, Moose would be looked at very differently. What may hurt guys like him is just the lack of memorable moments, which often happen in October. The Yankees won the World Series in each of the two years that bookended his Yankee tenure and they won none during his tenure. In fact, 2001 - 2008 was a relatively dark time for the Yankees because they lost a gut wrenching 7th game to Arizona, got beat by Josh Beckett in their own park in 2003, and blew the 2004 ALCS to the Sox. He was there for all of that. All of that being said, I don't see Mussina as a HOFer. I will remember him as a guy who as really good as he was, actually was never as great as I expected him to be with that sick arsenal of pitches.

Wow, good memory. F'ing Armando.

I also remember Mussina just not quite being the same pitcher after being drilled in the face with that comebacker. Still very, very good, but not the guy he was before.

[Redskins Rick]

You know, seems like no thread is safe the past couple of weeks from hot debates.

There are clearly two sides to this, and neither is going to convince the other to convert.

IMO, Mussina is one helluva of a pitcher and better than some in the HOF. The crap with the magic 300 and 20 wins, is bogus and not really valid, since we have 5 man rotations and not 4.

I hope he goes in as an Oriole.

[Frobby]

There are two arguments against Mussina I've always hated, though one is now moot.

1. He never won 20 games. Well, that's moot now, because he won 20 games in his final season. But it always was a dumb argument, when you consider how the game has changed. In 1971, there were 14 pitchers who won 20 games; the Orioles had four of them. There were only 12 in 2004-08 combined. Mussina's feat of winning at least 17 games eight times is roughly equivalent to Jim Palmer winning 20 games eight times in his career. That's how the game has changed.

2. He never won a World Series. Hey, it's a team game. Mariano Rivera blew one save in his World Series career -- it happened to be game 7 of a World Series while Mussina was on the team. You're going to pin that on Mussina? In my opinion, great World Series performances can elevate a career, but not winning one is not an argument against a player.

Back to the cap thing -- I just don't care. I loved Mussina when he was with us, and I've never begrudged his decision to leave. But that decision cost him the opportunity to rank with the Orioles who have their statues at OPACY, and no matter what cap is on his plaque, he'll always be the guy who decided to leave, no matter what you think about that decision.

[JR Oriole]

Wow, good memory. F'ing Armando.

I also remember Mussina just not quite being the same pitcher after being drilled in the face with that comebacker. Still very, very good, but not the guy he was before.

He lost a no-hitter in 1997 to Cleveland with 1 out in the 9th....to Sandy Alomar (who would subsequently murder us in the ALCS). He also lost a perfect game with 1 strike to go while he was with NY....the strangely confident Carl Everett got him then. Mussina was always just on the cusp of greatness, but never quite there.

[BMann]

There are two arguments against Mussina I've always hated, though one is now moot.

1. He never won 20 games. Well, that's moot now, because he won 20 games in his final season. But it always was a dumb argument, when you consider how the game has changed. In 1971, there were 14 pitchers who won 20 games; the Orioles had four of them. There were only 12 in 2004-08 combined. Mussina's feat of winning at least 17 games eight times is roughly equivalent to Jim Palmer winning 20 games eight times in his career. That's how the game has changed.

2. He never won a World Series. Hey, it's a team game. Mariano Rivera blew one save in his World Series career -- it happened to be game 7 of a World Series while Mussina was on the team. You're going to pin that on Mussina? In my opinion, great World Series performances can elevate a career, but not winning one is not an argument against a player.

But he also has at least two other problems:

3. He never won a Cy Young Award.

4. He was only an All-Star 5 times.

Add those to the first two and his resume looks a little flimsy.

[Old#5fan]

Agreed; not every HOFer needs a statue. But it's not like I would want his vandalized if it were to be constructed. I used to love Mussina, then hate him, and now I've gotten over it.

I swear to God in front of everyone here that if somehow that YANKEE slips into the HOF by the skin of his teeth they can put all the statutes of him in YANKEE Stadium or Stanford or PA in his home town but if one goes into OPACY I swear I will never set foot in there again and strongly consider becoming strictly a Nats fan! However I cannot imagine anyone named Angelos would ever allow such a travesty!

[Redskins Rick]

But he also has at least two other problems:

3. He never won a Cy Young Award.

4. He was only an All-Star 5 times.

Add those to the first two and his resume looks a little flimsy.

Look who won CY Young when he was pitching;

Clemens, Maddux, Johnson, Martinez, Schilling and Glavine

He pitched 4 one-hitters

11 times, he threw 200+ innings.

57 career complete games

23 Shutouts

He is 15th overall with K vs Walk ratio.

7 Gold Gloves, 8 Seasons with not a single error

82.7 bWAR and is 24th in MLB among pitchers.

He has a 123+ ERA.

.638 winning percentage, better than 4 current HOFers.

[Frobby]

But he also has at least two other problems:

3. He never won a Cy Young Award.

4. He was only an All-Star 5 times.

Add those to the first two and his resume looks a little flimsy.

I don't put any stock in the All-Star thing, because Mussina received Cy Young votes in 9 different seasons, which is more than enough. As to not winning a Cy Young, I do think that's a point against him. Of course, neither did Nolan Ryan, Don Sutton, Burt Blyleven or Juan Marichal. So, it's not dispositive.

I think winning 270 games, and being 117 games over .500, are huge accomplishments in the environment in which Mussina played, and along with his 123 ERA+, should carry him in. Moose isn't up there with several guys who have been elected in the last 2-3 years, but there isn't much coming up behind him in the next several years. There may not be another 270-game winner in the next decade.