Orioles trying to acquire Alcides Escobar or Mat Gamel from the Brewers?

[rolliefingers]

Would you do Tillman/Arrieta + Sherrill for Gamel or Escobar?

To quote Sen. Clay Davis: "SHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEIT"

[Stotle]

How about Sherill and Rowell for Gamel?

Sherrill doesn't make up the difference between an underperforming HiA Rowell and a breakout AA Gamel.

[itsernst]

Brian Roberts would be about the only player with Weeks coming back IMO...

Then we could land Escobar or Gamel, most likely Gamel. I doubt they trade Escobar unless they extend Hardy...

If we package together Roberts and Sherrill to the Brews, I would want more than Escobar back. I would throw in Payton and eat his salary too...although they would go for it, Id offer if we could get another prospect back.

How sweet would it be to get both Gamel and Escobar.

[beerisgood]

They'd upgrade relievers and Gagne would walk at the end of the year.

Gagne already is walking at the end of the year. 1yr/$10mil contract.

Sherrill is worth Gamel.

No, he's really not.

The Brewers are not trading Escobar or Gamel.

They already traded for Ray Durham, so they do not need Roberts.

They aren't going to give up on Rickie Weeks yet.

If they were going to trade Bill Hall, they would've done it 3 months ago.

[tywright]

This isn't how it works. Again, these decisions are made based on scouting appraisals not rankings of independent media sources.

Those rankings have more value than you think

[Stotle]

Gagne already is walking at the end of the year. 1yr/$10mil contract.

No, he's really not.

The Brewers are not trading Escobar or Gamel.

They already traded for Ray Durham, so they do not need Roberts.

They aren't going to give up on Rickie Weeks yet.

If they were going to trade Bill Hall, they would've done it 3 months ago.

I certainly agree with everything you wrote. I think this is more of an exercise in determining value than anything else. Regardless of whether or not Gamel is available, you can debate what he would be worth.

[Stotle]

Those rankings have more value than you think

Sigh. If you're implying inside info into the inter-workings of FO across baseball just say so openly. This sort of cryptic message don't serve anyone in an online discussion.

My above example using Heyward/Masterson/Gamel/LaPorta etc. stands, regardless on your valuation of the various rankings.

[tywright]

Gagne already is walking at the end of the year. 1yr/$10mil contract.

No, he's really not.

The Brewers are not trading Escobar or Gamel.

They already traded for Ray Durham, so they do not need Roberts.

They aren't going to give up on Rickie Weeks yet.

If they were going to trade Bill Hall, they would've done it 3 months ago.

Under different circumstances (i.e. Brewers not dealing Laporta for CC), Gamel would definitely be in the equation for Sherrill.

Everybody needs to realize that Gamel is getting hyped big time. This is a breakout year for him and he still is a defensive liability. Plus he's only had like 2 HR in his last 200ABs.

Laporta was equal to CC because of CC being a FA after this year. If CC was not a FA he would garner Laporta AND Gamel.

For information purposes only, take a look at this list

http://www.projectprospect.com/article/2008/07/21/top-25-prospect-rankings

[Stotle]

Under different circumstances (i.e. Brewers not dealing Laporta for CC), Gamel would definitely be in the equation for Sherrill.

Everybody needs to realize that Gamel is getting hyped big time. This is a breakout year for him and he still is a defensive liability. Plus he's only had like 2 HR in his late 200ABs.

Laporta was equal to CC because of CC being a FA after this year. If CC was not a FA he would garner Laporta AND Gamel.

For information purposes only, take a look at this list

http://www.projectprospect.com/article/2008/07/21/top-25-prospect-rankings

This doesn't really have anything to do with Sherrill not being worth a "Top 20" prospect. FWIW, I watched Gamel up close at the Future's Game (about 40 Ft.) and he looked a lot better at 3b than I expected. Also, FWIW, his bat looks to play at 1b, regardless.

[wildcard]

This thread is giving me a headache.

Does anyone watch the games? Starting pitching is the biggest need the O's have. More then a SS. More then a 3B.

Anyone that says the O's have enough young starting pitching, I have three words for them - Loewen, Patton and Albers.

Not only is this thread talking about trading pitching for hitting, which is the wrong direction, it is talking about trading young starters which is close to suicide.

I hope they do not trade Sherrill because the combination of Sherrill and Ray next year could free up Johnson for the rotation. But if they trade Sherril they should get starting pitching in return.

[JTrea81]

This thread is giving me a headache.

Does anyone watch the games? Starting pitching is the biggest need the O's have. More then a SS. More then a 3B.

Anyone that says the O's have enough young starting pitching, I have three words for them - Loewen, Patton and Albers.

Not only is this thread talking about trading pitching for hitting, which is the wrong direction, it is talking about trading young starters which is close to suicide.

I hope they do not trade Sherrill because the combination of Sherrill and Ray next year could free up Johnson for the rotation. But if they trade Sherril they should get starting pitching in return.

We have more arms than bats in this organization, and arms less sure things than bats. Look at the arms that came back in the Tejada deal since you mentioned it. Any arms we get in trade stand the same risk, where a position player has less risk. If we want a sure thing back for Sherrill, a pitcher is not what we want.

We've been stockpiling pitching for years now and where has it gotten us? I'd rather stockpile hitters.

[tywright]

Tillman, I'd agree. I would not move him for anything.

I don't think your statement with regards to Arrieta is true:

Since everyone is clinging to "rankings" here is an example.

Would anyone trade Liz, Detwiler or Masterson plus Sherrill for

Jason Heyward

Matt LaPorta

Andy LaRoche?

Both Liz and Masterson are decent bets to end up in the pen and Detwiler has been lost this year, but all were ranked last year right around where Arrieta will be ranked this year (50-70)

Heyward (28) is now BAs #4 prospect

LaPorta (24) is now a BAs #7 prospect

Gamel is currently ranked #20

I'm just pointing out that using rankings as absolute rules for trading (not a Y-Rated player for two Z-rated players) is faulty logic and logic that isn't even considered by FOs. It's all about how you view the prospect and what the picture of the prospect + three years looks like in your head.

That's what the Arrieta "value" discussions should be limited to. Not whether BA will rank him 35th or 59th...

Scouting rules over rankings, but why are rankings created in the first place? They're created for comparison purposes and to identify value specifically to evaluate trades. Teams rank their own farm systems and their opponent's prospects and this gets updated regularly based on scouting reports and performance. That's why Arrieta can't be dealt because his value is skyrocketing due to the evolution of scouting reports on him based on his performance this year.

Arrieta's value has been rising from day one because of his performance and ceiling. Liz's value has been jumping around because of his volatility and hints at being a reliever. Detwiler's value was based on his draft position. And Masterson has been a riser due to Bosox hype and he's always been seen as a reliever by the Sox. Thus Arrieta has more value than the 3 you mentioned had last year.

Plus you to take into account the variables. The O's can't be dealing pitching talent unless we're getting sure fire hitters. Gamel is still not a sure fire 3B, which is what we need.

[tywright]

We have more arms than bats in this organization, and arms less sure things than bats. Look at the arms that came back in the Tejada deal since you mentioned it. Any arms we get in trade stand the same risk, where a position player has less risk. If we want a sure thing back for Sherrill, a pitcher is not what we want.

We've been stockpiling pitching for years now and where has it gotten us? I'd rather stockpile hitters.

AM's philosophy is to stockpile pitchers in order to acquire major league ready offensive talent...not offensive prospects who still need to prove themselves.

[JTrea81]

Plus you to take into account the variables. The O's can't be dealing pitching talent unless we're getting sure fire hitters. Gamel is still not a sure fire 3B, which is what we need.

We also have this position called DH that will be empty in a year and a half...

[JTrea81]

AM's philosophy is to stockpile pitchers in order to acquire major league ready offensive talent...not offensive prospects who still need to prove themselves.

But offensive prospects are more valuable because they are less volatile. We've stockpiled some pitching, so lets trade it and get some offensive talent.