Hyde has "The Talk" with John Means

[Philip]

10 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Roch asked the same question today:  

 

 

I’ll vote for Hyde when he starts pulling the starters at the right time, instead of, “One more inning....ok, bases loaded, better warm someone...boy, that ball went a long way, welp, time to pull ‘im.”

Hyperbole? Perhaps a wee bit, but only a wee bit.

[survivedc]

14 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Roch asked the same question today:  

 

 

It would be weird to have Francona win, given the 30 games he’s missed so far (though I’m sure he still has a significant hand in what happens with that team).

[survivedc]

6 minutes ago, Philip said:

I’ll vote for Hyde when he starts pulling the starters at the right time, instead of, “One more inning....ok, bases loaded, better warm someone...boy, that ball went a long way, welp, time to pull ‘im.”

Hyperbole? Perhaps a wee bit, but only a wee bit.

You keep beating this horse but I don’t think I’ve seen any data on your end to support it.

Orioles starters have gone 4.4IP per start which is below the league average and in the bottom 3rd of the league. Even in a shortened season with expanded rosters, it’s not a great idea to expect the bullpen to go 4+ innings every night. Everyone would like Hyde to know exactly when his pitchers have had it and pull them accordingly, but it clearly isn’t that easy. And even then, he may know and be weighing the fact that the bullpen is tired or will be tired after playing 4 more games in a row. 

[Philip]

13 minutes ago, survivedc said:

You keep beating this horse but I don’t think I’ve seen any data on your end to support it.

Orioles starters have gone 4.4IP per start which is below the league average and in the bottom 3rd of the league. Even in a shortened season with expanded rosters, it’s not a great idea to expect the bullpen to go 4+ innings every night. Everyone would like Hyde to know exactly when his pitchers have had it and pull them accordingly, but it clearly isn’t that easy. And even then, he may know and be weighing the fact that the bullpen is tired or will be tired after playing 4 more games in a row. 

You are suggesting that I’m referring to an innings limit, and I’m not. I’m talking about the starter showing himself to either be fatigued or otherwise ineffective, the manager needs to plan for that so that the situation does not get any worse. Also the manager should not let him come out again after he’s had a turbulent anything that doesn’t result in any runs.
We should expect 5+ innings from our starters, but Hyde of All people knows the warning signs, and should be proactive, but he isn't. I’m not saying it’s easy, but it’s not impossible. And it’s certainly not THAT difficult. For instance. We have a waiver claim starting tonight. Hyde knows how many pitches/innings he can reasonably expect. Let’s say 60 pitches. If Lopez goes a scoreless but labored three innings at 60 pitches, it would be ok to let him start the fourth, but have someone ready in case he continues to have long ABs, because another 20 pitch inning insures he’s not coming back out for the fifth, and long ABs means he’s not putting anyone away, and the balls that are being fouled off will eventually get solid contact.

That would be a reasonable scenario. My complaint is that Hyde almost never acts proactively. Despite knowing those warning signs, and knowing the most he can reasonably expect, he waits too long before even getting someone warmed. And remember he has two extra relievers, including a couple long men.

Another scenario: Lopez gives up three first-inning runs on 10 pitches. That won’t change my pitch limit, and I won’t get anyone up early. Sometimes guys have slow starts. So it is a balancing act, but I wouldn’t be complaining if Hyde didn’t consistently have a late hook.

I wrote more, but let’s see what happens with Lopez. I’m very excited about the game tonight, and I hope Lopez does well, regardless of his pitch count.

[Philip]

31 minutes ago, survivedc said:

You keep beating this horse but I don’t think I’ve seen any data on your end to support it.

Orioles starters have gone 4.4IP per start which is below the league average and in the bottom 3rd of the league. Even in a shortened season with expanded rosters, it’s not a great idea to expect the bullpen to go 4+ innings every night. Everyone would like Hyde to know exactly when his pitchers have had it and pull them accordingly, but it clearly isn’t that easy. And even then, he may know and be weighing the fact that the bullpen is tired or will be tired after playing 4 more games in a row. 

I will say, that the average you mention is for the season, and includes guys that are no longer on the team, I think it’s more accurate to look at the starters pitch count at the beginning of the fourth and fifth innings, and see how many of them failed to finish the inning, and left with men on base. My point is that in an effort to get an extra inning out of his starter, Hyde allowed a risky situation. Hyde knows his pitchers’ optimum pitch range, And we are of course not privy to that information, but it sure looks like he goes beyond that range to our cost.

[Frobby]

38 minutes ago, Philip said:

I will say, that the average you mention is for the season, and includes guys that are no longer on the team, I think it’s more accurate to look at the starters pitch count at the beginning of the fourth and fifth innings, and see how many of them failed to finish the inning, and left with men on base. My point is that in an effort to get an extra inning out of his starter, Hyde allowed a risky situation. Hyde knows his pitchers’ optimum pitch range, And we are of course not privy to that information, but it sure looks like he goes beyond that range to our cost.

I don’t really see it.    I feel like I’ve heard this about every manager we’ve had since Davey Johnson.   You have to balance maximizing the chance of winning one individual ballgame vs. keeping your bullpen guys healthy and not overworked.    As I’ve said before, it’s a little easier to call on the pen earlier this year due to larger rosters.   But overall I don’t have a problem with Hyde’s balancing of today’s game vs. the bigger picture.   

[survivedc]

54 minutes ago, Philip said:

I will say, that the average you mention is for the season, and includes guys that are no longer on the team, I think it’s more accurate to look at the starters pitch count at the beginning of the fourth and fifth innings, and see how many of them failed to finish the inning, and left with men on base. My point is that in an effort to get an extra inning out of his starter, Hyde allowed a risky situation. Hyde knows his pitchers’ optimum pitch range, And we are of course not privy to that information, but it sure looks like he goes beyond that range to our cost.

My point is that I want YOU to look at their pitch counts in those innings and show that your hunch is correct. 
 

Asher W, for example, by ERA our worst starter (we’ll give Means a pass) has gone 5 innings 4 times, giving up 4, 3, 2 and 3 runs. The 4 in his first start is the most he’s given up.
Maybe there are examples of pitchers doing worse, and some sort of pattern to go along with it, but I’d like to see some evidence.

[Philip]

37 minutes ago, survivedc said:

My point is that I want YOU to look at their pitch counts in those innings and show that your hunch is correct. 
 

Asher W, for example, by ERA our worst starter (we’ll give Means a pass) has gone 5 innings 4 times, giving up 4, 3, 2 and 3 runs. The 4 in his first start is the most he’s given up.
Maybe there are examples of pitchers doing worse, and some sort of pattern to go along with it, but I’d like to see some evidence.

Fair question. How many times did he struggle into his final inning(warning sign) start the next inning poorly, with no one warming, and leave with runners on. That’s my beef, and I can check his starts and tell you.

but after the game.

[OFFNY]

o

 

88% of the Outs that Means recorded (15 out of 17) came via the Strikeout and the Groundout. 

Means' ERA went down from 5.63 to 5.02, his WHIP went down from 1.188 to 1.088, and OBA went down from .256 to .241. 

 

 

17 OUTS: )  12 Strikeouts, 3 Groundouts, 1 Popout, 1 Picked Off of 1st Base                      

 

 

JOHN ALAN MEANS )))))) (vs. DEVIL RAYS, 9/20)

IP:ll5.67

H:llll.3 ) l(1 Home Run, 2 Singles)

R:llll 1

BB:ll0 ) *

SO:l12

Pitches: l) 97 )(68 )Strikes, )29 )Balls)

2020 ERA: l) 5.02 )  37.67 IP  (21 ER) 

2020 WHIP: l)  1.088  )  37.67 IP  (41 H/BB) 

2020 OPPONENTS BATTING AVG: l)  .241  )l (35 for 145)   

 

* )) Means had 1 Hit Batsman

 

PITCHES BY INNING  

*******************  

16  ll(11 llStrikes, ll5 l.Balls)

16  lll(10 llStrikes, lll6 l.Balls)

16  lll(10 llStrikes, ll.6 llBalls)

23  lll(19 llStrikes, lll4 llBalls)

15  lll(11 llStrikes, lll4 llBalls)

11  lll(71 lStrikes, ll.4 llBalls) ) *

 

* )) Means recorded 2 Outs before departing in the 6th inning

 

o

[Frobby]

I can’t find the thread, but three starts ago someone was wondering if Means could get his ERA down below 5 by the end of the year, and I was saying that would be extremely difficult.    He’s now at 5.02, and if he gets his next out without allowing a run his ERA will be below 5.    What a strong finish he’s having — hopefully he can put together one more strong start and end the season on a very high note.   

[OFFNY]

33 minutes ago, Frobby said:

 

I can’t find the thread, but three starts ago someone was wondering if Means could get his ERA down below 5 by the end of the year, and I was saying that would be extremely difficult. He’s now at 5.02, and if he gets his next out without allowing a run his ERA will be below 5. What a strong finish he’s having — hopefully, he can put together one more strong start and end the season on a very high note.   

 

o

 

I think that this is the one ........

 

 

On 9/9/2020 at 12:17 AM, BohKnowsBmore said:

 

Nice to see Means right the ship a bit. His ERA is still not good at 6.58, but his WHIP is a very respectable 1.23 (he finished 2019 at 1.14.) If he can get his ERA in the high 4's by year's end, that would be amazing, considering how much of an impact that first game against the Yanks undoubtedly has.

 

 

 

On 9/9/2020 at 4:58 AM, Frobby said:

 

It would not be that hard to do, considering how few innings he’s thrown (26.) Assume that he gets four more starts and throws 22 IP (5.5/game), If he allowed 7 ER in that span (2.86 ERA for those four games), that would take his ERA to  4.88 ...... so it will be difficult, but not impossible.

 

 

 

 

o

[Moose Milligan]

He's on a tear, for sure.  Next season will be really interesting.

[Philip]

Means Akin Kremer and who?

Cobb will be moved in the off-season, which opens a spot.

Next spring will be exciting.

[Can_of_corn]

Just now, Philip said:

Means Akin Kremer and who?

Cobb will be moved in the off-season, which opens a spot.

Next spring will be exciting.

You found a team that wants Cobb?  You should let Elias know.

[bpilktree]

Means era 5.02still not good but that whip of 1.088 is very impressive.  The numbers don’t reflect the improvement in stuff an actually I am more confident in him after this year because of the uptick in fastball.  He went from possible back end of the rotation guy to a two or three on a contending team.