Britt joining in on the bash fest

[Sports Guy]

2 minutes ago, OsFanSinceThe80s said:

I agree 100% and the pain we're going through now is because of the missteps that occurred in 2017-18. It became obvious in 2017 that the 2012 to 2016 run was over, and it was time to start building towards the future. 

The farm system was depleted by 2017 and the much needed reinforcements needed to sustain the success of 2012 to 2016 were years away from arriving. Instead the Orioles made ill-advised trades and signed second rate free agents which is never going to work playing in the AL East. 

 

The one thing I will say about all the media bashing is that I do wish they would acknowledge this.  
 

This is the type of stuff where they start to get lazy.

But again, that is also kind of irrelevant to their point about the Orioles being a disgrace.  They are…but that’s just the quick and dirty evaluation.  There are layers to it for sure.

[Sports Guy]

2 minutes ago, eddie83 said:

They had a quicker turnaround because in part they didn’t wait as long to rebuild. There is a cost in trying to win. They lost Tatis for crying out loud trying to win. 
 

Its impossible to know but if the Orioles had executed it properly in 17 they wouldn’t be as bad now.  
 

I’m not ignoring how awful this team is right now. It’s hard to watch. You brought up Mountcastle. Everything you said is fair. The thing is though players like him aren’t available in the market. 

They absolutely are available.  They just aren’t young and cheap.  But they are available.

At the plate, he isn’t much different than Nunez was for us.

[Hank Scorpio]

You have to constantly be doing the little things like actually taking advantage of talent bases in the Caribbean & South America (OK THAT'S NOT A LITTLE THING WHATSOEVER) to keep the talent flowing through the system. If you've got revenue streams like the big market teams then maybe you could get away w/ not doing that.

Who knows what's going to come of the new CBA. But what Elias is doing actually is the best path forward to get the org on it's feet from top to bottom. He inherited a dumpster fire, and while the top of the dumpster is still flaming uncontrollably, the foundation is beginning to establish itself. 

[Sports Guy]

Will you all be ok with another status quo offseason?  Or do you expect/want to see some larger moves to make the team better.

[OsFanSinceThe80s]

1 minute ago, Sports Guy said:

The one thing I will say about all the media bashing is that I do wish they would acknowledge this.  
 

This is the type of stuff where they start to get lazy.

But again, that is also kind of irrelevant to their point about the Orioles being a disgrace.  They are…but that’s just the quick and dirty evaluation.  There are layers to it for sure.

That's the entire issue I have with this narrative that's come out in the last week where 2018 was being treated as part of the rebuild. Fans outside of Baltimore and even casual Orioles fans are going to believe 2018 was part of the not competing strategy.

Manny gets traded before the season 2018 and the Orioles don't waste money on Alex Cobb if the objective is a total rebuild. A better point by Olney and Britt would be where would the Orioles be right now if they started the rebuild before 2018.

Instead 2018 ended was the worst of both worlds with a half-assed attempt to compete for the playoffs and a year wasted not rebuilding the farm system. 

[maybenxtyr]

1 minute ago, Sports Guy said:

Will you all be ok with another status quo offseason?  Or do you expect/want to see some larger moves to make the team better.

I want the mpves to be made, however I expect very little.

[waroriole]

Just now, Sports Guy said:

Will you all be ok with another status quo offseason?  Or do you expect/want to see some larger moves to make the team better.

I expect another status quo off-season. I don’t like it, but what can I do about it. I think they need to sign ML level 3B, 2B, and 2 SP. It doesn’t have to be Kris Bryant level, but I don’t want to see OPSs in the low 600s for those positions. And I don’t want to see ERAs above 6 for those positions. Not asking a lot here. 

[Hank Scorpio]

4 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Will you all be ok with another status quo offseason?  Or do you expect/want to see some larger moves to make the team better.

I have zero expectations save maybe another couple Matt Harveys. 

I'm not sure I care all that much about winning 73 games vs. 53 games, but it is exhausting watching the same BS night after night. Thank the lord for milb.tv. 

[SteveA]

I've said this before and I'll say it again.  This season isn't a result of trying to be bad.  It is a result of a wave of young pitching being a near total failure at the major league level.  If Kremer, Zimmerman, Akin, and Lowther, had turned out to be, in some order: an adequate 3rd starter, a 5th starter who wasn't very good but could give you five innings, a decent bullpen piece, and one dud - we would be a lot better off.  We'd still be bad but not the laughingstock position we are in.

Instead we got 3 duds at the major league level and the jury is out on Zimmerman.  That is a failure of development, or luck, or circumstance.  But I think we had to give those guys a shot to see what they could do.  Planning from the start to stick them all at Norfolk for more "development" at their age would have been stupid.  Giving them a chance to sink or swim was the absolute correct plan, IMO.  The fact that they all sank really sucks and maybe has implications moving forward in terms of whether this administration can develop pitching.  But it was not a bad plan and was not "trying to lose".

As I have said, I certainly think we could have brought in ONE solid veteran P and still had room to give those guys their shot.  I agree 100% with Sports Guy on that.

But the hyperbole that they didn't try is just over the top.  Franco was an appropriate move, someone who could fill a spot for a year.  As was Galvis.  They botched second base, they failed to find a stopgap C that was better than Severino, perhaps overestimating what Sevvy would do with the bad and not realizing how Godawful he would be ebhind the plate.

So those are mistakes.  But the idea that they didn't try to field a team is over the top.  If the 4 rookie Ps had turned out to be half decent this would be a whole different narrative.  Everyone would be talking about that as a step forward in the rebuild.

This year was a failure primarily because of those pitchers.  Not because of some imagined strategy if trying to lose.  There were certainly a few moves they could have made to make this team a bit better, but in the long run they wouldn't have mattered.  Say we brought in a 1 or 2 year veteran starting P to solidify one spot in the rotation while not stopping Kremer/Lowther/Zimmerman/Akin from getting their chance?  Say we brought in a Chirinos or Casali to solidify C while we waited for Adley.  Would those moves have mattered in the long run?  The pitcher and catcher would likely be forgotten by the time this team was good.

1) Elias wasn't trying to lose.  He had a reasonable plan and it failed.  And that failure has negative implications moving forward.

2) A few moves could have been made to make the floor for this team higher and avoid the current embarrassment.  We don't know why they weren't made but budget is definitely a suspect.

I still say that #2 isn't a big deal (unless it is an indicator that such moves NEVER will be made, then it is a harbinger of doom).  The big deal is that just about every young pitcher we bring up who has had some level of success is a failure.

All the hand wringing in this thread about other moves that should have been made doesn't have 1/100th the importance to me that the development failures do.  And all the national reporters are looking at results and missing that point and assuming, like some fans on here, that Elias is trying to lose. 

[Sports Guy]

Just now, Hank Scorpio said:

I have zero expectations save maybe another couple Matt Harveys. 

I'm not sure I care all that much about winning 73 games vs. 53 games, but it is exhausting watching the same BS night after night. Thank the lord for milb.tv. 

If the Os win 55 games in 2022, how long do you think it takes them to get into contention?

[Sports Guy]

Just now, SteveA said:

I've said this before and I'll say it again.  This season isn't a result of trying to be bad.  It is a result of a wave of young pitching being a near total failure at the major league level.  If Kremer, Zimmerman, Akin, and Lowther, had turned out to be, in some order: an adequate 3rd starter, a 5th starter who wasn't very good but could give you five innings, a decent bullpen piece, and one dud - we would be a lot better off.  We'd still be bad but not the laughingstock position we are in.

Instead we got 3 duds at the major league level and the jury is out on Zimmerman.  That is a failure of development, or luck, or circumstance.  But I think we had to give those guys a shot to see what they could do.  Planning from the start to stick them all at Norfolk for more "development" at their age would have been stupid.  Giving them a chance to sink or swim was the absolute correct plan, IMO.  The fact that they all sank really sucks and maybe has implications moving forward in terms of whether this administration can develop pitching.  But it was not a bad plan and was not "trying to lose".

As I have said, I certainly think we could have brought in ONE solid veteran P and still had room to give those guys their shot.  I agree 100% with Sports Guy on that.

But the hyperbole that they didn't try is just over the top.  Franco was an appropriate move, someone who could fill a spot for a year.  As was Galvis.  They botched second base, they failed to find a stopgap C that was better than Severino, perhaps overestimating what Sevvy would do with the bad and not realizing how Godawful he would be ebhind the plate.

So those are mistakes.  But the idea that they didn't try to field a team is over the top.  If the 4 rookie Ps had turned out to be half decent this would be a whole different narrative.  Everyone would be talking about that as a step forward in the rebuild.

This year was a failure primarily because of those pitchers.  Not because of some imagined strategy if trying to lose.  There were certainly a few moves they could have made to make this team a bit better, but in the long run they wouldn't have mattered.  Say we brought in a 1 or 2 year veteran starting P to solidify one spot in the rotation while not stopping Kremer/Lowther/Zimmerman/Akin from getting their chance?  Say we brought in a Chirinos or Casali to solidify C while we waited for Adley.  Would those moves have mattered in the long run?  The pitcher and catcher would likely be forgotten by the time this team was good.

1) Elias wasn't trying to lose.  He had a reasonable plan and it failed.  And that failure has negative implications moving forward.

2) A few moves could have been made to make the floor for this team higher and avoid the current embarrassment.  We don't know why they weren't made but budget is definitely a suspect.

I still say that #2 isn't a big deal (unless it is an indicator that such moves NEVER will be made, then it is a harbinger of doom).  The big deal is that just about every young pitcher we bring up who has had some level of success is a failure.

All the hand wringing in this thread about other moves that should have been made doesn't have 1/100th the importance to me that the development failures do.  And all the national reporters are looking at results and missing that point and assuming, like some fans on here, that Elias is trying to lose. 

It’s more than just the failures of guys to develop.  That is certainly at or near the top of the list though.

But that is also an issue.  Elias is failing in developing at the ML level and that was supposed to his strong suit. 

That is what Holt, his hand picked guy to run the organization’s pitching, was supposed to do.  
 

[eddie83]

13 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

They absolutely are available.  They just aren’t young and cheap.  But they are available.

At the plate, he isn’t much different than Nunez was for us.

Ok.

How many are available?

Do they want to play here? 

How much do you have to overpay? 
 

How productive will they be the length of the contract? 

Will it block anyone down the road? 

 

Mountcastle’s upside and athleticism dwarfs Nunez. 

[Philip]

I don’t care what Brit says, she’s neither a journalist nor a writer, any more than Roch or Dan.

Regarding the Orioles, any fool can see that the progress has stagnated

yes we need to work on organization.Yes we need to establish an international presence. Yes we need to trade players of value for future assets, and time the arrival of our top prospects so they will come up together.

All that is happening. But there are many things that are not happening.

By now we should be seeing some on field results. We should have better bad players. A team that wins 60 games is better than a team that wins 50 games, and that would be beneficial. But we have gotten noticeably worse. I strongly believe that a player should be traded at peak value and that isn’t happening. Why did we keep Scott and Fry? They won’t be a part of our next good team either. Are we just gonna wait till they get expensive and then nontender them?

The team is an embarrassment. The manager is bad, but he’s not the main reason the team is an embarrassment.

We haven’t had any meaningful commentary on the team because few of the writers of quality right about the Orioles. 

[Sports Guy]

6 minutes ago, eddie83 said:

Ok.

How many are available?

Do they want to play here? 

How much do you have to overpay? 
 

How productive will they be the length of the contract? 

Will it block anyone down the road? 

 

Mountcastle’s upside and athleticism dwarfs Nunez. 

Sure it does..which is why I mentioned the offense, not the complete game.

And I don’t have the answers to your question but there are guys, like Nunez, who aren’t always given chances and can do it if given a chance, as Nunez did for us.

Mountcastle isn’t a difficult piece to find.  Mancini was a later round pick and his 2019 season is essentially the ceiling for RM.  They are very similar in a lot of ways.

[eddie83]

12 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Will you all be ok with another status quo offseason?  Or do you expect/want to see some larger moves to make the team better.

I expect to see some better moves. Nothing spectacular.