07/26/22 Roster Moves: Terrin Vavra is called up from Norfolk (MLB debut) and Arauz to the IL

[Fiver6565]

1 minute ago, Tony-OH said:

There is definitely a fanboy aspect to the guys who think Odor actually helps this team win. If Odor was not jumping up and putting on homer necklaces, they would be calling for his head like the rest of us.

Sure, it's two games, but it gives us an idea about how Hyde thinks. If he continues to play Odor I will know that he's not the manager of the future here with all the prospects coming up. 

We can't have the veteranosity manager managing a young team that will need to integrate rookies onto the team over the next few years. If he won't stop playing an obvious sub replacement level when they have better alternatives that concerns me.

Saying all that, I don't even know if Hyde makes out his lineups. For all I know Sid's computer pops out this lineup and somehow Odor has hacked into it and made the program think he's the 2016 version of himself.

Hyde hasn't had many veterans worth playing during his time here; or many rookies/young players to place ahead of them in the pecking order.  I can't say I blame him for leaning on a veteran or two, numbers be damned, here and there. 

 

I guess we'll see how this plays out.  I would imagine getting Vavra playing time is more of a priority than it was for Arauz, but time will tell.

[Tony-OH]

1 minute ago, SteveA said:

The team only decided he was good enough to be on the major league team because the 26th guy on the roster got his hand mashed on and had to go on the IL.  He wasn't on the team before that and likely wouldn't be if not for that incident.

If he plays 2 games a week that will still be more frequent playing time than the guy he replaced.

That's fine if they were bringing up Martin. Odor is the 26th man on this team, but Hyde thinks he's a starter. Would you bring up Henderson and say the same thing? Vavra is certainly not at the level of prospect of Henderson, but he is a legitimate major league prospect who plays 2B.  

When your 2B is clearly the worse player in your starting lineup each night, why would you not use the prospect and see how he does? If you think so little of Vavra that you consider him the 26th man, then either that says a lot about how they view Vavra overall or how much they value veteranosity.

[seak05]

I'm pretty frustrated Vavra isn't playing. I could be wrong, but I don't see Elias as a guy who brings up someone they view as a legitimate prospect, to not play. So either 

a) this is Hyde's call, which is a strike against Hyde or 

b) they don't view Vavra as a legit prospect 

option b seems odd to me given his stats at Triple-A and how they've handled him so far, so I am leaning option A. On the one hand, I don't really want Elias micromanaging Hyde's lineup...on the other I do wonder about how that plays out longer term 

[wildcard]

9 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

Odor has slashed .194/.271/.387/.659 in 70 PAs. I'm sure he's directly responsible for the 14-6 record in the month. lol

 

You are only looking at the offense.   Elias/Hyde did not play Mateo all season because of his hitting.  They valued his defense.    Chirinos is not here for his offense.  They value him his defense, game calling and mentorship.   

The double play is a big part of the O's defense.   Odor turns them well.  His relays  are general good.   He knows Mateo and Urias defensively and plays well with them.    It appears Elias and Hyde values that.  And they have reports and video on Vavra.   That might tell you something.    Hyde did not mention Vavra defense at 2B.  What he  said is he values his lefthanded bat.

Dempsey, Dauer and Cruz where valued for their defense not their offense.

[jabba72]

1 hour ago, wildcard said:

We don't know that Vavra is a better option over Odor.   He is a rookie fresh off the farm.  He has not played with Urias and Mateo.   He will have to learn their tendencies and the shifts.   His arm is rated average, so does that work in turning the double plays which is one of the keys to the O's success this year.

Just looking a batting averages does not tell the whole story.

Against RH's at least, im willing to find out about Vavra.

[Frobby]

10 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

It's the fan boy and girl thing. They love the guys that jump around and put on homer necklaces and they think wow, this guy is so important to the team winning. I don't think any of that matters. What mattes is putting the best nine guys on the field and you don't bring up a prospect and sit him on the bench when you are starting a well below average major leaguer because he's a good clubhouse guy.

I'm enjoying the Orioles winning as much as the next guy, but I look at the bigger picture. Don't bury prospects in favor of veternosity driven players. 

Pardon my saying so, but I wish you’d stop with the “fan boy” thing, which is condescending and disrespectful.   To me, a “fan boy or girl” is someone who thinks that every player (or prospect) is great and that every decision the team makes must be right.   There’s literally not a poster on this board who thinks those things.   

I didn’t want Odor last winter.   I don’t think he’s been a particularly good player for us.  I believe rWAR and fWAR’s assessment that he’s basically a replacement-level player is about accurate.   I’d be fine watching Vavra for a while to see if he can do better.   But I don’t discount that he’s been important to the chemistry of the team, and that benching him for a rookie could risk disrupting that chemistry.  I also don’t know much about Vavra’s defense, but I recall reading some negative things, some of which came from your scouting reports (“Defensively, he played ok at second base but a below average arm hurts him a bit turning double plays. His hands aren’t great but they are playable and he has a decent first step quickness.”).  So there’s also a risk that the defense will be downgraded.   Those things have to be weighed against the probable offensive upgrade (which, by the way, is not guaranteed to occur right away, judging from the debuts of many rookies).   So, I don’t think the decision is as simple as you make it sound.   

 

[jabba72]

17 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

There is definitely a fanboy aspect to the guys who think Odor actually helps this team win. If Odor was not jumping up and putting on homer necklaces, they would be calling for his head like the rest of us.

Sure, it's two games, but it gives us an idea about how Hyde thinks. If he continues to play Odor I will know that he's not the manager of the future here with all the prospects coming up. 

We can't have the veteranosity manager managing a young team that will need to integrate rookies onto the team over the next few years. If he won't stop playing an obvious sub replacement level when they have better alternatives that concerns me.

Saying all that, I don't even know if Hyde makes out his lineups. For all I know Sid's computer pops out this lineup and somehow Odor has hacked into it and made the program think he's the 2016 version of himself.

Elias wont allow this interference much longer and if he does then I guess it will show which prospects they value. Hyde eventually will be told who to play IMO.

[wildcard]

29 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

There is definitely a fanboy aspect to the guys who think Odor actually helps this team win. If Odor was not jumping up and putting on homer necklaces, they would be calling for his head like the rest of us.

That is so insulting.  Real SG stuff.    I have not mentioned Odor's cheerleading once until now.   I am actually not a fan of Odor.   I don't think he is part of the future. 

But when a team is on a  winning streak I am not for rocking the boat.   We can't always explain the reasons for winning.   Especially with this team.   But they are winning.    14-6 says they are playing well together and for as long as it lasts ride it for all its worth.

Edited July 27, 2022 by wildcard

[ChuckS]

6 minutes ago, wildcard said:

That is so insulting.  Real SG stuff.    I have not mentioned Odor's cheerleading once until now.   I am actually not a fan on Odor.   I don't think he is part of the future. 

But when a team is on a  winning streak I am not for rocking the boat.   We can't always explain the reasons for winning.   Especially with this team.   But they are winning.    14-6 says they are playing well together and for as long as it lasts ride it for all its worth.

Playing well together = winning like it might in basketball or football terms doesn't really apply to baseball where it is a culmination of individual performances.  

All 14-6 tells me is that more players on the team are performing well than poorly.  But Odor is still performing poorly and there is a present upgrade on the big league roster now who is sitting on the bench. 

[wildcard]

2 minutes ago, ChuckS said:

Playing well together = winning like it might in basketball or football terms doesn't really apply to baseball where it is a culmination of individual performances.  

All 14-6 tells me is that more players on the team are performing well than poorly.  But Odor is still performing poorly and there is a present upgrade on the big league roster now who is sitting on the bench. 

You don't watch the same games that I do.

[Jammer7]

12 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

There is definitely a fanboy aspect to the guys who think Odor actually helps this team win. If Odor was not jumping up and putting on homer necklaces, they would be calling for his head like the rest of us.

Sure, it's two games, but it gives us an idea about how Hyde thinks. If he continues to play Odor I will know that he's not the manager of the future here with all the prospects coming up. 

We can't have the veteranosity manager managing a young team that will need to integrate rookies onto the team over the next few years. If he won't stop playing an obvious sub replacement level when they have better alternatives that concerns me.

Saying all that, I don't even know if Hyde makes out his lineups. For all I know Sid's computer pops out this lineup and somehow Odor has hacked into it and made the program think he's the 2016 version of himself. 
 

Wow. I’m surprised to see this comment from you. Odor’s stats are poor, absolutely. I have no argument, based on statistics. The main reason he has had an impact is that he has mentored Mateo, and probably Urias, about how to go about their daily business as a pro ball player. The coaches can only teach just so much. Having Roogie there next to them has had a bigger impact than many fans think. About the only thing I would add to what you said about his positives is that he turns a very good DP. He is a very flawed offensive player. His approach is dreadful. Somehow, he ends up in the middle of so many clutch situations despite that. 

Odor and Chirinos have set a tone for the way they play the game. The way they conduct themselves and roll with the daily grind in their preparation. They have helped establish a culture of winning. The Orioles have done that in the minor leagues, and made it an emphasis about learning to play the game the way they want. But at the MLB level, they have a bunch of guys from other systems that needed that example set. Get everyone on the same page. The players have much greater value than they did before. Other teams will want some of these younger vets in trades as we promote our own guys. They are building a winning culture. This is how it has to be done. It doesn’t just happen overnight. 

Odor’s and Chirinos’ impact might be much less as each day goes by, and perhaps it is time to move them both along. Bring in Nottingham or Bemboom or whomever. Play Vavra everyday and see what we have. But I don’t think anyone who knows baseball can dismiss the contributions of Odor and Chirinos as being anything less than crucial to developing this team’s winning culture. Hyde talks about it often for a reason. 

 

[ChuckS]

5 minutes ago, wildcard said:

You don't watch the same games that I do.

Do the games you are watching tell you that Odor is performing well?

[ScGO's]

Vavra might be playing every day in a week.  Has there been any prospect called up where Elias and Hyde didn't handle them with "kid gloves" in the beginning?

[waroriole]

2 minutes ago, ScGO's said:

Vavra might be playing every day in a week.  Has there been any prospect called up where Elias and Hyde didn't handle them with "kid gloves" in the beginning?

Has any prospect besides Adley been called up? Not much of a track record to go on, but Adley wasn’t kid gloved. 

[bpilktree]

1 hour ago, Frobby said:

This may be the thinking.   That said, Odor has batted 7th or 8th for 14 consecutive games.   There’s probably a specific reason he’s batting 6th tonight.  I have no idea what the reason is.   

He had Adley hitting 5th or 6th in most of those which breaks the right handed stack up.  When a tight handed starts he tries to keep the order as even as possible if the pitchers splits are pretty much equal.  Rasmaussun also has made it more theN 5 innings three times so the bullpen will probably see at least 3 to 4 innings tonight for the Rays.  He will stack with a dominant lefty in there though at times.  He is still hitting 7th tonight so not like he is in middle of the order.