Perspective: August 18, 2021

[Redskins Rick]

36 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Lol.  Clueless would be thinking that Buck cared more about the long term of the organization than winning the title he has failed to win. 

Clueless would be acting like Duq, especially after the TOr stuff, had more power than Buck.

 

I do not know which is worse, what you wrote, or you actually believe the bullcrap you type

[Sports Guy]

6 minutes ago, Redskins Rick said:

I do not know which is worse, what you wrote, or you actually believe the bullcrap you type

C) that you don’t realize it’s true.  Although it’s not surprising.

[Redskins Rick]

26 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

C) that you don’t realize it’s true.  Although it’s not surprising.

I pretty sure the majority on this board, will not agree with your assessment that Buck had more power than the GM, in playing the GM role.

[foxfield]

1 hour ago, Frobby said:

We don’t gain another year in those 22 days.  We gain the possibility of acquiring an extra draft pick if Henderson is on the OD roster next year and finishes in the top 3 for ROY, which he can only do if he’s rookie-eligible.  To be eligible, we can’t bring him up until August 23 and he can’t accumulate more than 130 at bats (note: AB, not PA) by the end of the season.  

To gain an extra year, we’d need to delay his debut by at least 13 days next year and he’d need to not finish in the top two for ROY.
 

Thanks...I didn't mean to over simplify the dates.  The overall point is the same.  Whether we agree or disagree with Elias, he has been clear on his intent.

1 hour ago, Can_of_corn said:

All of this service time manipulation can be avoided by signing the players to long term deals.

That way you can have both, today and tomorrow.

My hope Corn, is that we see some of that as soon as this offseason.  It would jive with what Elias has said.  But I will await signs that ownership is ready before I fully expect otherwise.

2 hours ago, Sports Guy said:

Yes, I think giving him a lot more games this year and giving us a better chance to win is more important than some extra year that may or may be important to begin with.  Not to mention it gives him that much more experience for 2023, which is obviously important.(unless you think we should still be trying to lose which, maybe you do)

I’m glad you are ok with losing and not fielding the best product.  That’s fine.  

Personally, I enjoy winning more.

 

Well, since the way things are being run is resulting in more winning than anyone expected, you have sort of boxed yourself in by your own argument.  But you speak in terms of exacts.  If anyone disagrees you say they are stupid or want that they want to lose....or they are lying.

Like you said Elias, at the beginning of the year, wanted to lose and was intentionally trying to lose.

Let's not spit hairs.  I assume you want to win.  I want to win, the Orioles want to win.  Let's even say Ownership wants to win. They don't award trophies for wanting to win.

No one here really knows exactly what it will take, but all of us have seen a large number of ways to fail.  

You love to share your opinions and people here enjoy you sharing them, because you back em up with specifics.  This place is better off for you doing that.  

But you also seem to relish being against whatever is actually going on as if you are singularly aware of the impending doom.  And it seems that you get the most pushback when things are going even remotely well.  

Being a contrarian on the Orioles has been a pretty reliably smart thing.  And you are no doubt smart.  I may push back on your thought process at times, but I don't need to get into the gutter to do it.  I don't need to call you names.  But I don't mind pointing out things when I don't think they square up.  

And for the 100th time, nobody tries to lose.  The Orioles were not focused on Major League results for 3 years.  That resulted in some horrible baseball.  But they did not attempt to lose.  And they are still not trying to lose.  The fact that you seem to be able to tell the difference immediately upon the Orioles placing focus on the Major League results and yet... are still, in August of 2022.... still singing the Elias is not trying to win is perplexing.

I am not saying that everything he has done is great...or even good.  But he is in a position to have his team in the playoffs at least 2 years earlier than his harshest critics say...he has one of the leading candidates for ROY, who if the Os actually make the playoffs, will earn votes for MVP.  Has the top player and pitcher in the Minor Leagues and a rookie manager who all of a sudden is in a position to get Manager of the Year votes.

It goes without saying that unless there is a total collapse down the stretch and everything comes tumbling down, Elias is going to be the in the mix for Executive of the year himself.  I think there is plenty of room to question...and still a long way to go.  But I think at this point...people who say he is trying to lose...are the ones who look out of place.

Let's beat Boston tonight!  Then see what happens tomorrow.  I think it might turn out better than you think.

 

[Sports Guy]

1) When you say stuff that you claim I said and its completely false(like not even close to being true), that is lying.

2) The on the field Orioles tried to win.  No one ever said any different.  The people who put those players on the field, this given them no chance, tried to lose.  If you don't believe that, I don't know what to tell you but you are fooling yourself.  They aren't trying to lose now but they aren't prioritizing the playoff race in 2022 over the future.  That is also obvious.

3) I expected them to be in the playoff race in 2023.  I had said they should be 500 in 2022.  This year has been lucky, as this is not what the team tried to do. End of the day, the timetable is where it should be.  People who thought it would take more years just weren't paying attention, didn't understand the talent they had or just flat out were being overly critical for sh!ts and giggles.

 

I have been telling you for a year that the rebuild is over..it is and it was.  This year is showing that.  They are and have been ready to win.  Its up to Elias to make that happen.  Its up to Elias to surround the existing players with the players needed to put the team over the top.

[foxfield]

13 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

1) When you say stuff that you claim I said and its completely false(like not even close to being true), that is lying.

2) The on the field Orioles tried to win.  No one ever said any different.  The people who put those players on the field, this given them no chance, tried to lose.  If you don't believe that, I don't know what to tell you but you are fooling yourself.  They aren't trying to lose now but they aren't prioritizing the playoff race in 2022 over the future.  That is also obvious.

3) I expected them to be in the playoff race in 2023.  I had said they should be 500 in 2022.  This year has been lucky, as this is not what the team tried to do. End of the day, the timetable is where it should be.  People who thought it would take more years just weren't paying attention, didn't understand the talent they had or just flat out were being overly critical for sh!ts and giggles.

 

I have been telling you for a year that the rebuild is over..it is and it was.  This year is showing that.  They are and have been ready to win.  Its up to Elias to make that happen.  Its up to Elias to surround the existing players with the players needed to put the team over the top.

I sincerely believe you agree with every bit of this.  I should push back on the calling me a liar, but I am more than comfortable that my post stands on merit even within this thread.  Actually even within this post (see bold).

But I will let it go now that you are on board that Elias has succeeded in getting this team above .500 and now the next step is to surround them with more talent because they are ready to win.

Why must you be such an angry young man...when your future looks quite bright to me.  How can there be such a sinister plan?  That could hide such a lamb, such a caring young man.  You're fooling yourself....  

 

[Sports Guy]

16 minutes ago, foxfield said:

I sincerely believe you agree with every bit of this.  I should push back on the calling me a liar, but I am more than comfortable that my post stands on merit even within this thread.  Actually even within this post (see bold).

But I will let it go now that you are on board that Elias has succeeded in getting this team above .500 and now the next step is to surround them with more talent because they are ready to win.

Why must you be such an angry young man...when your future looks quite bright to me.  How can there be such a sinister plan?  That could hide such a lamb, such a caring young man.  You're fooling yourself....  

 

I will tell you what.  Lets have a bet.  If you can find any post where I suggested the team spend 200+M (more than they did) on payroll the last 2 seasons, I will leave the board for good.

And if you can't find them, you leave the board for 1 month.

Since you didn't lie about that, this should be easy for you to accomplish.

Edited August 19, 2022 by Sports Guy

[foxfield]

27 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

I will tell you what.  Lets have a bet.  If you can find any post where I suggested the team spend 200+M (more than they did) on payroll the last 2 seasons, I will leave the board for good.

And if you can't find them, you leave the board for 1 month.

Since you didn't lie about that, this should be easy for you to accomplish.

What?    I did not even think that was your issue....I am sorry you misunderstood what I said.  You have advocated for about 100 Million each of the last two years which would be a couple hundred million over 2 years.  And I also said you would have brought people up much earlier and spent 12-15 years of service time over the last few years.  

I honestly thought you took that as fact and pushed back at saying the Orioles were trying to lose.  Because you have called that a lie in the past as well.  I do not believe you have advocated for a $200 Million jump in payroll...and that is not what I said.

What I said, was:

Well, I am not ready to put Elias on a pike, or a pedestal, but I am fairly certain, that if you were in charge, the payroll over the last two years would be a couple hundred million higher and the talent pool about 12-15 years lighter in service time.

And if you don't remember from yesterday.  I am not a gambler.

[Sports Guy]

30 minutes ago, foxfield said:

What?    I did not even think that was your issue....I am sorry you misunderstood what I said.  You have advocated for about 100 Million each of the last two years which would be a couple hundred million over 2 years.  And I also said you would have brought people up much earlier and spent 12-15 years of service time over the last few years.  

I honestly thought you took that as fact and pushed back at saying the Orioles were trying to lose.  Because you have called that a lie in the past as well.  I do not believe you have advocated for a $200 Million jump in payroll...and that is not what I said.

What I said, was:

Well, I am not ready to put Elias on a pike, or a pedestal, but I am fairly certain, that if you were in charge, the payroll over the last two years would be a couple hundred million higher and the talent pool about 12-15 years lighter in service time.

And if you don't remember from yesterday.  I am not a gambler.

I never said I wanted a 100M payroll the last few years.  I would have brought up Adley last year, which if he gets top 2 in ROY, will mean he has the same amount of service time as if he was called up last July when I said.  And I said you said I advocated for 200 million more over the last few years..which would actually mean I was advocated for 150ishM payroll, which is total and complete bs.  
 

In fact, I have said I’m ok if they don’t spend that when they are winning all the time.  

Who have I advocated to call up the last few years where we would have lost 12-15 years?  That would mean 12-15 players.   And how many of those players matter with the service time.  
 

Please provide me all this info because it seems to me you are making this up and putting words in my mouth.

[foxfield]

1 hour ago, Sports Guy said:

I never said I wanted a 100M payroll the last few years.  I would have brought up Adley last year, which if he gets top 2 in ROY, will mean he has the same amount of service time as if he was called up last July when I said.  And I said you said I advocated for 200 million more over the last few years..which would actually mean I was advocated for 150ishM payroll, which is total and complete bs.  
 

In fact, I have said I’m ok if they don’t spend that when they are winning all the time.  

Who have I advocated to call up the last few years where we would have lost 12-15 years?  That would mean 12-15 players.   And how many of those players matter with the service time.  
 

Please provide me all this info because it seems to me you are making this up and putting words in my mouth.

This is exhausting.  Over two years calling up players early would require somewhere between 6 and 12 players.  Without looking back you have advocated for all of the following earlier than actual:

Adley 2yrs, Vavra, Stowers, Gunnar, Westbrook, Hall, Grayson 2 yrs...that is at least 9 years of service and I believe you have called for Mayo.  IF I am wrong on any of this I apologize.  I am not trying to put words in your mouth.  

My main point was and is your hang up on the Orioles are not trying to win and yet are still winning.  Apparently accidentally.

 

 

[Frobby]

4 hours ago, Sports Guy said:

Lol.  Clueless would be thinking that Buck cared more about the long term of the organization than winning the title he has failed to win. 

Clueless would be acting like Duq, especially after the TOr stuff, had more power than Buck.

 

I hate it when people give Duquette a pass.  He was the effing GM!   There’s never been anything other than speculation that the key decisions weren’t his.  At a minimum, he didn’t do enough to stop bad moves from happening, given that roster decisions are HIS JOB!   To me he was a sniveling weasel who easily bears his share of the blame for how the team was run during his tenure.   And it’s seems the industry agrees, as I haven’t seen anyone even give Duquette a job interview since he left Baltimore nearly 4 years ago.   What does that tell you?   

[foxfield]

3 minutes ago, Frobby said:

I hate it when people give Duquette a pass.  He was the effing GM!   There’s never been anything other than speculation that the key decisions weren’t his.  At a minimum, he didn’t do enough to stop bad moves from happening, given that roster decisions are HIS JOB!   To me he was a sniveling weasel who easily bears his share of the blame for how the team was run during his tenure.   And it’s seems the industry agrees, as I haven’t seen anyone even give Duquette a job interview since he left Baltimore nearly 4 years ago.   What does that tell you?   

Don't hold back Frobby!!!!

[Il BuonO]

5 minutes ago, Frobby said:

I hate it when people give Duquette a pass.  He was the effing GM!   There’s never been anything other than speculation that the key decisions weren’t his.  At a minimum, he didn’t do enough to stop bad moves from happening, given that roster decisions are HIS JOB!   To me he was a sniveling weasel who easily bears his share of the blame for how the team was run during his tenure.   And it’s seems the industry agrees, as I haven’t seen anyone even give Duquette a job interview since he left Baltimore nearly 4 years ago.   What does that tell you?   

And he was not in demand when they hired him. I’m a little surprised at your strong reaction to his tenure, in that they were competitive and I don’t think it’s a reach to speculate that PA had much more input and influence than that which Elias has to contend. 

That said, I thought DD was a placeholder who did have a diminished role after the overtures from Toronto. 

[Remember The Alomar]

12 minutes ago, Frobby said:

I hate it when people give Duquette a pass.  He was the effing GM!   There’s never been anything other than speculation that the key decisions weren’t his.  At a minimum, he didn’t do enough to stop bad moves from happening, given that roster decisions are HIS JOB!   To me he was a sniveling weasel who easily bears his share of the blame for how the team was run during his tenure.   And it’s seems the industry agrees, as I haven’t seen anyone even give Duquette a job interview since he left Baltimore nearly 4 years ago.   What does that tell you?   

The rare Dark Rage Frobby post always brings me joy.

[Sports Guy]

42 minutes ago, Frobby said:

I hate it when people give Duquette a pass.  He was the effing GM!   There’s never been anything other than speculation that the key decisions weren’t his.  At a minimum, he didn’t do enough to stop bad moves from happening, given that roster decisions are HIS JOB!   To me he was a sniveling weasel who easily bears his share of the blame for how the team was run during his tenure.   And it’s seems the industry agrees, as I haven’t seen anyone even give Duquette a job interview since he left Baltimore nearly 4 years ago.   What does that tell you?   

I’m not giving him a pass.  He made his mistakes.  He also made great moves.  But he wasn’t the real GM.  Buck was.  No way he had the same authority as Buck, especially after the Toronto stuff.

He didn’t want to keep Davis, for example.

Edited August 19, 2022 by Sports Guy