O's Fans Held Hostage - Day 19

[Sports Guy]

What has he done? Hmmmm. Not much, other than our decision to draft more guys who fell due to signability issues and pay larger bonuses.

I think this has more to do with Jordan than AM even though I think their draft, for the most part, was very poor this year.

But I think I can answer your question with a question:

What did MacPhail do between December 1, 2007 and March 1, 2008 to improve the Orioles' breadth and depth of talent?

In other words, how long does a trade take? Your use of "eleven months" is arbitrary. As long as he improves it over the next year, it doesn't really matter what he's done or not done in the past eleven months.

I mean, I can play the game on your terms, I guess. But then I have to acknowledge that you've created something with enough internal coherence to constitute a "game." And I'm not sure it does. You claim you want value (as defined by depth and breadth of talent).

Here is the difference...I fully acknowledge that what AM did from the time he was brought here until the time Bedard was dealt was good stuff..Now, I do think he let things drag out too long and that he should have dealt BRob to the Cubs(of course, this was really after Bedard anyway) but ultimately, he did a good job.

But tell me: what's the difference if a trade gets made in November, December, or March? And if there isn't any, what does it matter what happened since the last spate of trades?

And IF he gets things done in these next few months, i will applaud him for it.

To be more specific, what if he trades Guthrie and Scott during the season? Is their value diminished?

Who knows if their value gets diminished..Maybe they will get hurt...Underperform, etc..Or maybe their value will be higher. Either way, if you can get a very good deal for these guys now, you do it now..Waiting makes little sense.

I just don't understand your almost literal adherence to "what have you done for me lately?"

This is just mind boggling to me....How do you not understand this? In the last 11 months, he hasn't improved the deoth and talent of the team. He has not put us in a better position to win long term.

How do you not get that the idea of that bothers me? What exactly do you need to be said for you to understand this?

[Lucky Jim]

At the tiime F&B were replaced Bradford, Walker, and Baez had only been with the club for two months. To say AM was brought in do to these signings being poor is just not right. I've outlined reasons AM was brought in and can't really go into more details:

F & D spent a decent amount of money in free agency

F & D pushed hard for Perlozzo to be fired in May

D cut pre draft deals with Weiters and Arrieta

Could I get a list of what F & D did wrong prior to June of 2007 that would cause them to be replaced. It's all about money and control with PGA.

Who said he was brought in DUE to those signings? Not I. I said: let's take a look at who knows what the #$*& they're doing and who doesn't.

But if you're really struggling to understand why those signings were bad, then you REALLY shouldn't be making fun of others' "mediocre standards".

[Moose Milligan]

We also have pretty solid replacements that aren't far off at all for Scott and Sherrill. Reimold and Montanez could take care of LF if we move Scott. Or Freel. Some combination of Ray, Liz, Sarfate, and Baez could close games for us in 2009.

I wouldn't trust Liz anywhere near a mound. I'm sorry if I sound like OldFan right now, but I just don't see it. Late and close situation, we need a save or someone to bridge the gap to Ray, you think Liz can throw a strike when he absolutely needs to?

Thats the thing, I don't get why we wouldn't look to trade Liz, Olson, Penn, Reimold. We already know what Sherrill can do, he's a proven commodity. So is Scott.

To say say that we can replace those two guys with Reimold and Liz is just hope...and hope isn't a business plan.

Reimold clearly doesn't fit into this organizations plan with the way they've slept on him for the past couple of seasons anyway...

[Hank Scorpio]

There is not a front office in baseball that does not make mistakes with player signings, trades, etc. AM hasn't made a mistake because he's only done 3 or 4 things in the past 18 months.

I think the idea here is to inject as much young talent into this system as possible.

Well, how do you do that?

1. Amateur Draft

2. Trades

3. International Signings

What do you want the man to do? Create value for Brian Roberts? Aubrey Huff? Trade our only pitcher?

Remember, he also has a responsibility to his manager, owner and fan base to field a reasonably competitive product.

He came in here and got great return for our two biggest trade chips. He pantsed Seattle and got a ransom for Tejada considering the report that came the next day that would have destroyed his value. He tried to trade Roberts to the Cubs but couldn't get what he determined to be a good return. There was no market for Aubrey Huff this season.

It's not like he can come in here and trade Aubrey Huff for Brandon Wood. We'd like to THINK that he could, but we'll never know that for sure.

[Sports Guy]

But why is it short sighted?

Good teams have players like Guthrie, Scott and Sherrill. They're not superstars, but they're good, relatively cheap and do good things on the field.

Hey, isn't that the type of player you constantly say we should be targeting in a trade?

We are a minimum of 2 years away from serious contention and it is probably really 3-4 years....What is more likely to help us then?

A 36 year old reliever, a 33 year old starter and a 33 year platoon OFer or your young starting LFer, First baseman, SS and perhaps a young pitcher?

[Shopay]

At the tiime F&B were replaced Bradford, Walker, and Baez had only been with the club for two months. To say AM was brought in do to these signings being poor is just not right. I've outlined reasons AM was brought in and can't really go into more details:

F & D spent a decent amount of money in free agency

F & D pushed hard for Perlozzo to be fired in May

D cut pre draft deals with Weiters and Arrieta

Could I get a list of what F & D did wrong prior to June of 2007 that would cause them to be replaced. It's all about money and control with PGA.

You've cited to this on several occasions. I'm not saying you're wrong, just wondering why, if this is what you truly believe, you are critical of AM? It seems as if this would mean his hands are tied and the criticisms, if they are to be mentioned, should be directed towards PA.

[bigbird]

You didn't answer my question about why you don't like MacPhail.

Very simple... he does not do enough to make us better. He's been in charge for 18 months and we've had a great waiver position. Tell me one decent waiver claim we've made???? He doesn't target and pursue talent. No reason we should not have been all over Anthony Reyes when the Cards were looking to deal him. He just doesn't do enough. He's been in control for 2 offseasons. Tell me a quality free agent he's signed???

[LookinUp]

At the tiime F&B were replaced Bradford, Walker, and Baez had only been with the club for two months. To say AM was brought in do to these signings being poor is just not right. I've outlined reasons AM was brought in and can't really go into more details:

F & D spent a decent amount of money in free agency

F & D pushed hard for Perlozzo to be fired in May

D cut pre draft deals with Weiters and Arrieta

Could I get a list of what F & D did wrong prior to June of 2007 that would cause them to be replaced. It's all about money and control with PGA.

I won't even try to get into a discussion on the reasons AM was brought in. I know more about Astrophysics than that. Either way, these three moves were bad. It wasn't about the annual salaries, it was about signing aging veteran RELIEVERS to three year contracts.

Actually, it was even worse. These moves were about a complete ignorance as to where the Orioles were in the process of competing. They thought we were a good bullpen away, and then they thought this was the way to build that good bullpen. That's just downright shameful.

Good job on the Weiters and Arietta deals though. :laughlol:

[Hank Scorpio]

Just answer me this...

What has AM done in the last 11 months to improve the depth and talent of the organization?

What has he done, since the Bedard deal, that puts us in better shape to contend in 2010 or even 2011?

He hasn't rushed any of our young pitching.

[Moose Milligan]

We are a minimum of 2 years away from serious contention and it is probably really 3-4 years....What is more likely to help us then?

A 36 year old reliever, a 33 year old starter and a 33 year platoon OFer or your young starting LFer, First baseman, SS and perhaps a young pitcher?

Well if we're 3-4 years away (I agree with that) we'll probably have built through the draft more. We'll definitely have top 10 picks and we know that MacPhail likes college talent.

By that point we will have figured if Rowell and/or Snyder fit into our plans, too.

I'm not totally disagreeing with you, I do see where you're coming from. I just think MacPhail has expanded his view to who could help this team in the next 2-3 years other than the Markakis/Jones/Wieters trio we constantly talk about.

If the right deals are there, definitely take them...

[Shopay]

Yeh, Gibbons was an awful decision from day one and EVERYONE knew it.

I still think the Mora deal is fine and thought so then.

Baez and Gibbons were the awful decisions.

I liked the Walker and Bradford decisions OK. Walker was a bit out there for sure and RZNJ and I argued like cats-and-dogs over it. Turns out, Walker wasn't a good move for three years. However, the price tag was relatively minor. Baez wasn't minor.

The biggest issue with the Mora deal, IMO, was the no/limited trade clause. That's nitpicking a little bit, I will admit.

[bigbird]

The bolded is true. To me, the debate centers more around how much we actually got for the $43 million we gave to Walker, Bradford and Baez. Otherwise, every signing, regardless of the cost, is not a mistake so long as the player has a decent performance. We were certainly in a bind, bullpenwise, the year before we signed those three players, but I still feel that was an awful high price to pay for the three.

WRT Duquette, I was probably more troubled by the long term deals given to Gibbons and Mora.

The deals for Mora and Gibbons were mandated by PGA after both players spoke with him. Every team makes mistakes. What was the Yankees return for Pavano??? Another factor was the misuse of the bullpen by Perlozzo and Mazzone.

[MCL1021]

Haven't been there for 5 years...As I said, things may have changed...Just talking about how things were when I was there.

Either way, if he takes over and believes he should have some imput on baseball moves, then we are going to become the Cubs.

That would be a horrible day. At that point, I may just give up on baseball and the O's completely.

[sakata_catching]

Didn't Flanniquette also fail to offer arbitration to LaTroy Hawkins, resulting in lost draft picks when the Rockies picked him up? That was pretty embarrassing.

[tywright]

Very simple... he does not do enough to make us better. He's been in charge for 18 months and we've had a great waiver position. Tell me one decent waiver claim we've made???? He doesn't target and pursue talent. No reason we should not have been all over Anthony Reyes when the Cards were looking to deal him. He just doesn't do enough. He's been in control for 2 offseasons. Tell me a quality free agent he's signed???

So there's nothing you don't like about him personally?

FYI, Reyes has had elbow soreness since September. Also many other teams passed on him and didn't offer STL a trade. And did you see definitely hear we didn't inquire about Reyes?

Other than Tex and Burnett, there have been no other FA's worth signing and giving up draft picks.