O's Fans Held Hostage - Day 19

[davearm]

What has AM done in the last 11 months to improve the depth and talent of the organization?

SG, why on earth do you do this silly "month count" trick?

You know that's not a meaningful way to judge things.

In baseball, all months are not the same. Plus, it's not months that matter.

There's the off-season where you figure out what the team is gonna look like...

And there's the playing season where you mostly go with the guys who are in the organization on OD.

Nobody makes very many moves outside the org during the season. Nobody.

(Just because some folks get into a frenzy about "deadline deals", that doesn't change the fact that very few of them happen, and most of those that do don't matter.)

Your argument would be a lot more compelling and realistic if you went by the two parts of the year that are meaningfully different: the playing season and the off season.

To judge what matters requires that those 2 seasons are each taken as a whole, not dissected into little teeny bits.

If you go by months, you could say that last season was "mostly a success, with only a 2 really bad months at the end".

But nobody does that, because that's not how baseball works. It's not a month-sport, it's a season-sport.

Counting months is a meaningless metric. You know this. It's just an empty rhetorical trick that amplifies impatience.

"What has AM done in the last playing season and this off season to improve the depth and talent of the organization?"

Better?

[davearm]

The biggest issue with the Mora deal, IMO, was the no/limited trade clause. That's nitpicking a little bit, I will admit.

Agreeing to the NTC kept the dollars down.

Folks would hate the Mora deal just as much (if not more) if it had been for millions more $$$s but without the NTC.

[LookinUp]

I wouldn't trust Liz anywhere near a mound. I'm sorry if I sound like OldFan right now, but I just don't see it.

Boy do I ever agree with this point. I'd personally add Ray to that equation as well. IMO, they should both be included in trades. Heck, they may even ellicit a greater return than Sherrill.

I will repeat again that I think Guthrie is the poster child for a guy that should be traded a year early rather than a year late.

Another great point here. I think Guthrie's at his peak and I doubt he stays there for more than 2-3 more years. In other words, I just don't see him as a longer term contributor to a winning team. Generally, with a pitcher like him who's cheap and under control for the next several years, I'd say hold on to him. However, in Guthrie's case, I think his value to us is greater in a trade than here.

Very simple... he does not do enough to make us better. He's been in charge for 18 months and we've had a great waiver position. Tell me one decent waiver claim we've made???? He doesn't target and pursue talent. No reason we should not have been all over Anthony Reyes when the Cards were looking to deal him. He just doesn't do enough. He's been in control for 2 offseasons. Tell me a quality free agent he's signed???

This is a very fair point. I am one to defend AM's performance when it comes to speculated trades for people like Roberts, Huff and Mora because I doubt the market for those guys is very strong. However, I too think that he could have been more active getting cheap under the radar guys like Reyes.

[MCL1021]

From everything BB is saying above this is a PA issue, not an AM issue. If so, the darts should be directed towards PA.

I've long run out of darts for PGA...they're too darn hard to pull off the corkboard out of his head....

[Shopay]

I've long run out of darts for PGA...they're too darn hard to pull off the corkboard out of his head....

Good one.

[Shopay]

Agreeing to the NTC kept the dollars down.

Folks would hate the Mora deal just as much (if not more) if it had been for millions more $$$s but without the NTC.

Mora is actually a case where I believe we had a good shot at the home team discount.

[bigbird]

Didn't Flanniquette also fail to offer arbitration to LaTroy Hawkins, resulting in lost draft picks when the Rockies picked him up? That was pretty embarrassing.

What if they did and he accepted it and was awarded $5 million. What's worse????

[bigbird]

"What has AM done in the last playing season and this off season to improve the depth and talent of the organization?"

Better?

I just wish more people would listen to Dave concrning AM. He's lived through it.

[Mackus]

What if they did and he accepted it and was awarded $5 million. What's worse????

You cut him before ST and only owe him 1/6 of that.

Not offering Hawkins arbitration was absolutely inexcusable, although only a small mistake in the scheme of things. Would have made losing those draft picks for the relievers they did sign much more tolerable though.

[Lucky Jim]

I just wish more people would listen to Dave concrning AM. He's lived through it.

Of course you do. On the other hand, we're living through it now. But - to be clear - you'd like us to move away from discussing the Orioles and focus on his tenure with the Cubs?

Or would you like to rally to Duq's defense some more?

[Mackus]

I think the bottom line is this:

Since Thrift, each "GM regime" has left the team in a better state than when they found it, however, none of the regimes have done enough to make the team a contender. Different people tried different approaches, none have worked yet. Flanny/Beattie's sign Tejada/Lopez/Ponson/Palmeiro approach fell apart, and was hindered greatly by not also signing Guerrero. Flanny/Duke's sign MRs and re-establish the minor league system approach fell apart when the minor league pitchers they were counting on didn't come through except for Bedard. MacPhail's approach of go cheap and young, continuing the MiL rebuild hasn't yielded any results yet, although I don't think anyone, MacPhail included, expected results this quickly. I do think he messed up in not signing Tex and speeding along the process.

[RShack]

"What has AM done in the last playing season and this off season to improve the depth and talent of the organization?"

Better?

Very much.

As I said, GM's don't do much outside the org during the season. They mainly do that stuff in the off season.

This off season isn't done, so we don't know about this one yet. So far, we only know about AM's first one.

Now, if somebody wants to judge this offseason at the halfway mark, I have a question:

Do you think we should evaluate the team's on-field performance last season based on how it was doing at the halfway mark?

No? I didn't think so. Because that's not how baseball works.

[bigbird]

You cut him before ST and only owe him 1/6 of that.

Not offering Hawkins arbitration was absolutely inexcusable, although only a small mistake in the scheme of things. Would have made losing those draft picks for the relievers they did sign much more tolerable though.

Sorry but that's not the way baseball works. There are some unwritten rules to baseball arbirtation and cutting a player after binding arbitration isn't practiced. I can't ever rcall this happening, can you????

[bigbird]

Of course you do. On the other hand, we're living through it now. But - to be clear - you'd like us to move away from discussing the Orioles and focus on his tenure with the Cubs?

Or would you like to rally to Duq's defense some more?

Or do you want to bring up that he won 2 world series with the Twins???

[LookinUp]

I predict that we'll settle whether AM is a great, good, average, below average or terrible GM on page 128 of this thread. :laughlol: