How do Mateo/Henderson/Ortiz/Westburg rank/compare defensively at shortstop?

[emmett16]

16 minutes ago, Frobby said:

All these stats measure players against their peers.  The peer group is getting better all the time.   Belanger was much further ahead of his peers than Mateo.  But the bar is way higher today.   

There’s only a decade between 2012 Hardy and 2022 Mateo.   So defense has continued to improve in that time, but not as dramatically as when you’re talking about a 40-50 year gap.   My observation is that Mateo makes a number of plays Hardy couldn’t, but Hardy was less error-prone.  Mateo made 17 errors last year; Hardy never made more than 13 as an Oriole and had four seasons of 6 errors or less.   Hardy had a way of making difficult plays look easy, whereas Mateo makes plays in a more spectacular-looking fashion.  I’d be hard-pressed to say whether Mateo played a better SS last year than Hardy did in his prime.   He certainly made more plays that make you say “wow!”.

 

Hardy absolutely had a way of making difficult plays look easy.  As soon as the ball was hit on the ground in his direction you knew you had an out.  Hardy was the most fundamentally sound defender I’ve ever seen.  All the little things he did were so impressive; his tags, his relays, his footwork on double plays, and the seemingly perfect throw every time that hit Davis square in the chest.  Hardy had a cannon when he needed it also.  I wish we had statcast numbers to be able to compare their arm strength.  The eye test I think goes to Mateo.  There were so many plays last year I didn’t think he had a chance of making and then threw a laser across field to get the runner by a hair.  

[Frobby]

8 minutes ago, SemperFi said:

Hi Frobby-have always appreciated your insight over the years.  I have to show my ignorance (and sometimes skepticism over defensive metrics-vs offense) but how do they measure zone metrics going back decades to Belanger and Aparico's era??  When I look at them especially dWAR among OF's it doesn't often match what my eyes tell me.  I would appreciate others input as it is confusing to me.

Unlike other metrics that rely on visual observation and evaluation, total zone rating relies on statistical analysis and can be done retroactively.  It’s probably not as good as the visual observation metrics, but its the best thing available for seasons that pre-date those techniques and it does stack up pretty well even in more current years.   Here’s an explanation of how it’s done: https://www.baseball-reference.com/about/total_zone.shtml

I agree with your observations about defensive metrics. I never like to rely on a single metric, and like to look at the full set of what’s available.   Even so, there are times when I find them suspect.   At the same time, the eye test is also very unreliable because we don’t usually see what kind of break the fielder got, where he was positioned, etc.

[Number5]

20 minutes ago, emmett16 said:

Hardy was the most fundamentally sound defender I’ve ever seen.  All the little things he did were so impressive;

Great play by Machado, but how about a tip of the cap to Hardy for being at third for the throw?

[wildcard]

2 hours ago, Jammer7 said:

Lateral quickness, agility and length help with range too. Arm strength is huge, allows more depth.

Tony calls Ortiz arm solid average.

Edited December 25, 2022 by wildcard

[E-D-D-I-E]

2 hours ago, emmett16 said:

Mateo played the best SS I’ve seen an Oriole play last year.  His arm is the strongest of the group.  One thing he can do better than the others is catch bloopers short fly balls to lf & cf. 

 

Stronger than Cal? I can't say I agree. However, maybe seeing more will sway me.

[E-D-D-I-E]

At short I would prefer a guy like Hardy over the ultra rangy 'wow' guys. Make the routine play all day.

[emmett16]

20 minutes ago, wildcard said:

Tony calls Ortiz arm solid average.

I think in terms of arm strength the order is Mateo, Gunnar, Ortiz, Westburg.  

[Babkins]

4 hours ago, E-D-D-I-E said:

As an ex college short stop I can tell you your leaving out the most important trait, arm strength. Arm strength makes up for a minor lack of range. Quickness gives you the ability to get in better position to throw, requiring less arm strength. Release can help with that too. The difference between a good shortstop and a good 2nd basemen much of the time, is arm strength. 

 

Cal got away with his lack of quickness with arm strength, instinct, and positioning. Cal played very deep and could because of that arm.

Ala Manny at 3rd

I recall an interview with Cal way back when, probably in the early nineties before he moved off short, in which he described his tendency to position himself much closer to home plate in order to get to more ground balls. It seemed counterintuitive to me when I first read it—I’d assumed that playing deeper would allow a fielder a better chance to keep the ball in front of him—but Cal’s rationale, as I remember it in the article, makes sense: he said positioning himself closer to the plate cut down on the distance he would have to range to his right or left to get to a ball. It certainly would have put a premium on his reaction times and on his ability to predict where a batter would be likely to hit a ball. I looked, briefly and unsuccessfully, for a source for this. (If OFFNY were here, he could probably cite the publication and the date.) Does anyone else recall reading something like this once upon a time?

[wildcard]

18 minutes ago, emmett16 said:

I think in terms of arm strength the order is Mateo, Gunnar, Ortiz, Westburg.  

Ortiz is rated with a 50 arm.   Westburg's arm is rated 55.

s 

[emmett16]

17 minutes ago, wildcard said:

Ortiz is rated with a 50 arm.   Westburg's arm is rated 55.

s 

Fangraphs has Ortiz 55 & Westburg 45.  Havn’t seen a lot of Ortiz.  I’ve seen a good bit of Westburg.  If Westburg has a better arm than I’m baffled by all the praise on Ortiz’s defensive abilities from so many different outlets.  

[wildcard]

8 minutes ago, emmett16 said:

Fangraphs has Ortiz 55 & Westburg 45.  Havn’t seen a lot of Ortiz.  I’ve seen a good bit of Westburg.  If Westburg has a better arm than I’m baffled by all the praise on Ortiz’s defensive abilities from so many different outlets.  

Ortiz is more agile and sure handed than Westburg.  Ortiz is a slick fielder who does not make many errors.    

[SemperFi]

3 hours ago, Frobby said:

Unlike other metrics that rely on visual observation and evaluation, total zone rating relies on statistical analysis and can be done retroactively.  It’s probably not as good as the visual observation metrics, but its the best thing available for seasons that pre-date those techniques and it does stack up pretty well even in more current years.   Here’s an explanation of how it’s done: https://www.baseball-reference.com/about/total_zone.shtml

I agree with your observations about defensive metrics. I never like to rely on a single metric, and like to look at the full set of what’s available.   Even so, there are times when I find them suspect.   At the same time, the eye test is also very unreliable because we don’t usually see what kind of break the fielder got, where he was positioned, etc.

Thanks that helps, the eye test part of it is funny being down on the field makes a big difference.  It was much more noticeable to me during spring training or when there were high draft picks in rookie ball (GLC).  Batting is different, love listening to the sound of the bat during batting practice-some guys just have "that sound". 

[Jammer7]

3 hours ago, wildcard said:

Tony calls Ortiz arm solid average.

That sounds about right. I have not seen enough to say either way. I have not seen a canon, but he does have a quick release. 

[Roll Tide]

23 hours ago, Pickles said:

I'm not Tony but I think it's pretty consensus:

Mateo

Ortiz

Henderson

Westburg

 

If only Mateo could bat .250 with an OBP of .330. He’d be Uber valuable

[SemperFi]

6 hours ago, Babkins said:

I recall an interview with Cal way back when, probably in the early nineties before he moved off short, in which he described his tendency to position himself much closer to home plate in order to get to more ground balls. It seemed counterintuitive to me when I first read it—I’d assumed that playing deeper would allow a fielder a better chance to keep the ball in front of him—but Cal’s rationale, as I remember it in the article, makes sense: he said positioning himself closer to the plate cut down on the distance he would have to range to his right or left to get to a ball. It certainly would have put a premium on his reaction times and on his ability to predict where a batter would be likely to hit a ball. I looked, briefly and unsuccessfully, for a source for this. (If OFFNY were here, he could probably cite the publication and the date.) Does anyone else recall reading something like this once upon a time?

This doesn't speak specifically to your point but sort of touches on it plus my initial thoughts:

Not even Ripken's record-breaking glovework in 1990 could silence his detractors. He finished with the highest fielding percentage (.996) and fewest number of errors (three) ever for a major-league shortstop, breaking the records set by Tony Fernandez (.992, six errors) the previous season. Ripken established two other major-league records by going 95 games and 431 chances without making an error.

Yet critics asserted that Ripken's fielding records were products of his limited range. He didn't get to as many balls, so he couldn't make as many errors as a more acrobatic, diving shortstop.

"That's a crock," said Ripken's brother Bill, a fine defensive second baseman. "He can go get them. He just positions himself so well he doesn't haveto show his range that much."

Even if Ripken's range is limited, the numbers confirm his brother's analysis that he compensated for his lack of lateral movement with positioning.Through 1991, he led the American League in putouts five times, assists six times, total chances four times and double plays five times.

Ripken positions himself in the infield based on the pitcher, the hitter, the balls and strikes count and the game situation. He knows his own pitchers extremely well - what pitches they tend to throw in certain situations - and he studies opposing hitters - where they tend to hit the ball depending on the count.

The positioning techniques were used, to a lesser extent, by a slow-footed third baseman named Robinson. Third base is a more reactionary position than shortstop; knocking the ball down is more important than fielding it cleanly. But Robinson's positioning allowed him to make the spectacular plays.

"Your thinking might change based on who's pitching and what he's throwing," Robinson said. "A shortstop has to move around a little more than a third baseman."

Eddie Brinkman, a major-league shortstop from 1961 to 1975, played against Robinson. Brinkman's American League record of consecutive errorless games was broken by Ripken. He saw two players who made up for their lack of speed with sure hands and sound footwork.