How do Mateo/Henderson/Ortiz/Westburg rank/compare defensively at shortstop?

[SemperFi]

23 minutes ago, wildcard said:

Range is mostly about foot speed IMO.   Many plays at SS do not require foot speed.  They require quickness.   But many plays do benefit from foot speed.   The ball to the outfield, the ball up the middle, the ball deep in the hole all can require foot speed for a SS to reach them.

True, also instinct-Cal was a prime example, I don't think of him as quick or having much speed but he knew what pitch was coming, the batter and would cheat towards where he thought the ball would go.  

[E-D-D-I-E]

As an ex college short stop I can tell you your leaving out the most important trait, arm strength. Arm strength makes up for a minor lack of range. Quickness gives you the ability to get in better position to throw, requiring less arm strength. Release can help with that too. The difference between a good shortstop and a good 2nd basemen much of the time, is arm strength. 

 

Cal got away with his lack of quickness with arm strength, instinct, and positioning. Cal played very deep and could because of that arm.

Ala Manny at 3rd

[Frobby]

1 hour ago, SemperFi said:

True, also instinct-Cal was a prime example, I don't think of him as quick or having much speed but he knew what pitch was coming, the batter and would cheat towards where he thought the ball would go.  

JJ Hardy is another good example.  Nobody’s going to accuse JJ of having above average speed, yet his range stats were excellent.   

[SemperFi]

20 minutes ago, Frobby said:

JJ Hardy is another good example.  Nobody’s going to accuse JJ of having above average speed, yet his range stats were excellent.   

Can't believe I forgot about him...I'm slipping.  Guys like that played on their toes, drives me nuts when you see a flat footed SS or third baseman.  Have lots of images of Brooks always leaning forward, never on the balls of his feet-although 3rd was a little different, always a step and dive position.

[SemperFi]

Sorry, don't know how to edit yet but as noted by a couple guys arm strength is huge-longest throws in the infield and playing deeper really helps.  Accuracy too, don't know if the stats back it up but JJ was so accurate with that over the top motion always seemed to place the ball at a 2Bs chest on a DP or on a throw to first.  Vividly remember when coaching starting each practice with relay drills, throwing to the chest-catching with two hands then pivoting.  Fundamentals are so important to build that muscle memory.

[Jammer7]

2 hours ago, wildcard said:

Range is mostly about foot speed IMO.   Many plays at SS do not require foot speed.  They require quickness.   But many plays do benefit from foot speed.   The ball to the outfield, the ball up the middle, the ball deep in the hole all can require foot speed for a SS to reach them.

Lateral quickness, agility and length help with range too. Arm strength is huge, allows more depth. What JJ did as well as anyone is master the one hand pick up. He had very soft and quick hands.

Mateo throws very well on the move and from a variety of arm slots and angles. Mateo is remarkably accurate from all of those angles too. I wish he’d plant the right foot in the hole instead of the jump throw. He does not do that well. 

I think Mateo, Ortiz, Henderson and Westburg is the best order. Henderson could play there for a while and become a super star, though. Mateo might just take some steps to improve this year as well. 2022 was the first year he got everyday at bats. We’ll see if he learns better swing decisions.

It is a good problem to have. I am curious if we can trade Mateo, what it would look like to have Westburg at 3B, Henderson at SS and Ortiz at 2B. What about Norby’s bat, and is he good enough at 2B? 

[E-D-D-I-E]

As or org we have been blessed with sick good defenders at short. Bordick, Cal, JJ, The Blade, Aparicio, to name a few. No Mateo is not at that level until he does it for 10 years. 

[emmett16]

8 minutes ago, E-D-D-I-E said:

As or org we have been blessed with sick good defenders at short. Bordick, Cal, JJ, The Blade, Aparicio, to name a few. No Mateo is not at that level until he does it for 10 years. 

Mateo played the best SS I’ve seen an Oriole play last year.  His arm is the strongest of the group.  One thing he can do better than the others is catch bloopers short fly balls to lf & cf. 

 

[Bahama O's Fan]

I think Mateo would have to hit extremely bad (yes, worse than last year) to get moved off of SS 

[SemperFi]

46 minutes ago, E-D-D-I-E said:

As or org we have been blessed with sick good defenders at short. Bordick, Cal, JJ, The Blade, Aparicio, to name a few. No Mateo is not at that level until he does it for 10 years. 

Certainly true, most would consider Aparicho and Belanger to be among the four best in the game with Ozzie and Visquel being the other two.  In terms of GG's there is a big drop after that.  I appreciate defense and think a big reason for the Orioles improvement is their defense, it changes the way you can and do pitch.

[Frobby]

38 minutes ago, emmett16 said:

Mateo played the best SS I’ve seen an Oriole play last year.  His arm is the strongest of the group.  One thing he can do better than the others is catch bloopers short fly balls to lf & cf. 

 

That’s where his raw speed provides a clear advantage.  

Best seasons by Rtot: Belanger +35 (1975), Ripken +23 (1984, 1991), Bordick +20 (1999),  Hardy +19 (2012), Aparicio +15 (1965), Mateo +5

Best seasons by Rdrs: Hardy +18, Mateo +14

Best seasons by UZR: Hardy +11.4 (2012 & 2014), Bordick +7.8 (2002), Mateo +7.5

Best seasons by TZ: Belanger +35 (1975), Ripken +23 (1984), Aparicio +17 (1964)

Mateo was spectacular last year, but I have trouble saying he played the best SS I’ve ever seen from an Oriole, even realizing that fielders today make plays that nobody would have dreamed of in 1964 or 1975.
 

[emmett16]

3 minutes ago, Frobby said:

That’s where his raw speed provides a clear advantage.  

Best seasons by Rtot: Belanger +35 (1975), Ripken +23 (1984, 1991), Bordick +20 (1999),  Hardy +19 (2012), Aparicio +15 (1965), Mateo +5

Best seasons by Rdrs: Hardy +18, Mateo +14

Best seasons by UZR: Hardy +11.4 (2012 & 2014), Bordick +7.8 (2002), Mateo +7.5

Best seasons by TZ: Belanger +35 (1975), Ripken +23 (1984), Aparicio +17 (1964)

Mateo was spectacular last year, but I have trouble saying he played the best SS I’ve ever seen from an Oriole, even realizing that fielders today make plays that nobody would have dreamed of in 1964 or 1975.
 

Belanger must have been something special.  My writing skills leave a lot to be desired, I realize my post lumped all the guys together.  I was born in 1980 and of the guys I’ve had a chance to see play in person, Mateo had the most impressive defensive season I’ve seen.  

[jrobb21613]

Mateo looks like a natural out there like he was born to play the position. I was not impressed with sss I saw of Henderson at short. To me he just seem real fluid there. 

[Frobby]

14 minutes ago, emmett16 said:

Belanger must have been something special.  My writing skills leave a lot to be desired, I realize my post lumped all the guys together.  I was born in 1980 and of the guys I’ve had a chance to see play in person, Mateo had the most impressive defensive season I’ve seen.  

All these stats measure players against their peers.  The peer group is getting better all the time.   Belanger was much further ahead of his peers than Mateo.  But the bar is way higher today.   

There’s only a decade between 2012 Hardy and 2022 Mateo.   So defense has continued to improve in that time, but not as dramatically as when you’re talking about a 40-50 year gap.   My observation is that Mateo makes a number of plays Hardy couldn’t, but Hardy was less error-prone.  Mateo made 17 errors last year; Hardy never made more than 13 as an Oriole and had four seasons of 6 errors or less.   Hardy had a way of making difficult plays look easy, whereas Mateo makes plays in a more spectacular-looking fashion.  I’d be hard-pressed to say whether Mateo played a better SS last year than Hardy did in his prime.   He certainly made more plays that make you say “wow!”.

 

[SemperFi]

35 minutes ago, Frobby said:

That’s where his raw speed provides a clear advantage.  

Best seasons by Rtot: Belanger +35 (1975), Ripken +23 (1984, 1991), Bordick +20 (1999),  Hardy +19 (2012), Aparicio +15 (1965), Mateo +5

Best seasons by Rdrs: Hardy +18, Mateo +14

Best seasons by UZR: Hardy +11.4 (2012 & 2014), Bordick +7.8 (2002), Mateo +7.5

Best seasons by TZ: Belanger +35 (1975), Ripken +23 (1984), Aparicio +17 (1964)

Mateo was spectacular last year, but I have trouble saying he played the best SS I’ve ever seen from an Oriole, even realizing that fielders today make plays that nobody would have dreamed of in 1964 or 1975.
 

Hi Frobby-have always appreciated your insight over the years.  I have to show my ignorance (and sometimes skepticism over defensive metrics-vs offense) but how do they measure zone metrics going back decades to Belanger and Aparico's era??  When I look at them especially dWAR among OF's it doesn't often match what my eyes tell me.  I would appreciate others input as it is confusing to me.