1/14 @ Miami

[BaltBird 24]

What about all those great recruits we got in the 2002 and 2003 classes? Don't accuse people of glossing over something when you yourself are glossing over something.

I can't argue that those classes saw much, much better talent than we're seeing now. How I would kill for Ekene Ibekwe right about now....

[accinfo]

Really? Too good to be true?

Mike Brey has been to one Sweet 16 this decade. He has 1 less NIT appearance in 8 years than Gary has since 1994. No final fours. No championship. No Elite 8.

He's made it past the second round 1 time at ND.

But it's too good to be true, right?

Give me a break.

How many Final 4's did Gary Williams get to before he coached at Maryland? How many Elite 8's? How many conference championships? What has Gary Williams ever won without Juan Dixon on his team?

[Mackus]

You are so bi-polar, Mack. One second you are hammering me for my "Anti-Williams agenda" and then you come up with the exact problem we are facing.

We agree that this program should be an elite program and we agree that there is no reason for us to be in the situation we are in. The only difference is I want to hold Williams accountable. Perhaps it's my military background but the leader takes the responsibilities of failures along with the triumphs.

I will credit for Williams making Maryland a great program and I will give him credit for developing a team that enabled the university to build a great facility to play and practice in. But I will also blame him for the horrible recruiting (that you and others just seem to gloss over) that did not capitalize on the national championships and led us to the position we are in now.

I'm not unaware of the problems that are facing the program, or how we got to this situation.

You identify the problems and say Gary's gotta go. I identify the problems and say Gary's gotta fix them.

I still think that he can get the ship turned around, and that he's the best man on the planet to hold down the job of being the coach of the Maryland Men's Basketball team. If a time comes when I think whomever we would bring in if he left would do a better job, then maybe I'll start pushing for Gary to go, but at this point, I still think Gary can do a better job than anyone else we'd bring in. Recruiting is going to turn around, and the program will get back up to where we belong, and then when it's time Gary can go out on top, on his own terms.

[Mackus]

What has Gary Williams ever won without Juan Dixon on his team?

An ACC Regular Season title, an ACC tournament championship, a Big East Regular Season title, and 14 NCAA tournament games (plus 13 NCAA tourney games, an ACC Regular Season Title, 2 Final Fours, and a National Championship with Juan Dixon).

[glenn__davis]

An ACC Regular Season title, an ACC tournament championship, a Big East Regular Season title, and 14 NCAA tournament games (plus 13 NCAA tourney games, an ACC Regular Season Title, 2 Final Fours, and a National Championship with Juan Dixon).

I swear man, sometimes I wonder if people would give him more credit if he hadn't won that championship. Now, it's like they want to point to that as his only accomplishment.

[ccbird]

I swear man, sometimes I wonder if people would give him more credit if he hadn't won that championship. Now, it's like they want to point to that as his only accomplishment.

A lot of fans, even the ones with a lot of money, were getting frustrated with the inability to get past a sweet 16 before 2001 and were starting to wonder if it was time for a change. If we hadn't gone to the '01 Final Four and won the National Championship a year later I'm almost certain Gary wouldn't be here right now. That National Championship bought him a lot more time, heck in some people's opinion it bought him a lifetime contract here.

[glenn__davis]

A lot of fans, even the ones with a lot of money, were getting frustrated with the inability to get past a sweet 16 before 2001 and were starting to wonder if it was time for a change. If we hadn't gone to the '01 Final Four and won the National Championship a year later I'm almost certain Gary wouldn't be here right now. That National Championship bought him a lot more time, heck in some people's opinion it bought him a lifetime contract here.

Oh, I understand that. I remember the criticisms of Gary from before the NC. But that doesn't mean the he wasn't an immensely successful coach before that. It's not like he just caught lightening in a bottle with Dixon and Baxter and they led him to his only good seasons.

[ccbird]

Oh, I understand that. I remember the criticisms of Gary from before the NC. But that doesn't mean the he wasn't an immensely successful coach before that. It's not like he just caught lightening in a bottle with Dixon and Baxter and they led him to his only good seasons.

There are a lot of people who believe that '01 and '02 were lightning in a bottle. To make it worse they've not only failed to see Gary capitalize on the National Championship but actually allow the program to slip and fall to point below where it was for most of the '90s. So has Gary gotten lazy and rested on his morals or is he the same recruiter and coach he has always been but just got lucky with his '01 and '02 teams. Either way it is a no win situation for Gary.

Personally, I do believe the '01 and '02 were set up by a fortunate set of circumstances. Those were the right group of kids all playing together at the right time. Not only did a lot of them individually exceed "experts" expectations coming into the program but they meshed and complimented each other so well. That isn't to take anything away from the job Gary did while they were here. They still needed a teacher and a leader. After the '01 FSU home game when they had their home fans booing them off the court they really took Gary's "F'em", me against the world, attitude and it propelled them to that year's Final Four. There is no doubt in my mind that Gary was the right coach at the right time for those players.

As I've said before Gary is just a polarizing person. People either love him and feel he can do no wrong or people hate him and don't want to give him any credit at all. Maybe it's not quite that extreme but people generally fall strongly to one side of any Gary debate.

[beaner]

I really don't get the lightning in the bottle argument though.

Can't you say that about every team basically that wins a NC?

What about Roy Williams? He was known as a choke artist at Kansas, never could win the big game. Then he goes to Carolina, wins with Daughtery's recruits, and has had great teams since and hasn't been back to the Final Four if I'm not mistaken.

So, couldn't Carolina fans have the same gripe right now about Roy? Caught lightning in the bottle and hasn't won since?

We went to the Final Four last year, and blew a 12 point lead in the Elite Eight two years ago. Roy did win with Doherty's recruits, but has certainly proven himself to be a worthy recruiter, another title or not. I'm confident that a National championship with this group is a possibility.

Oh yeah, Fire Gary!!! Please, Fire Gary!

[Mackus]

Yeah my bad...I kept thinking they played Kansas in the Elite 8 for some reason.

I wasn't trying to take away Roy's credentials at all, I think he's a top 5 coach in college basketball. I just think Gary is in the same class, and certainly isn't as far away from Roy as some MD fans on here would say.

Gary is no where near Roy or the Top 5 in recruiting though. He's certainly up there in the X's and O's of the game though, the guy is as good of an in-game coach as there is anywhere.

He doesn't all of a sudden need to be Billy Donovan recruiting, either. I don't think we have to have 5 McDonald's All-Americans to win. But one or two would be nice, or at least the really talented, if very raw, kids. The guys like Chris Wilcox. Not the players like Jerome Burney who are both raw and only average talents. Just get out there, work really hard and get a couple nice players, and make sure they end up on the court at Maryland.

[beaner]

Yeah my bad...I kept thinking they played Kansas in the Elite 8 for some reason.

I wasn't trying to take away Roy's credentials at all, I think he's a top 5 coach in college basketball. I just think Gary is in the same class, and certainly isn't as far away from Roy as some MD fans on here would say.

No biggie. That Kansas game is the worst big game I've ever seen the program play in the 30 years I've been following.

I 100% agree with you on Gary vs. Roy. Gary might even be a better in game coach. He almost always "coaches up" his players, which is more than Roy can say to be honest. Carolina sells itself, Roy doesn't have to do anything except give MJ a call and ask him to call a recruit. It's almost too easy for a program like that. Not to take anything away from Ol Roy, I love the guy, but honestly how hard can it be to convince someone to play in Chapel Hill.

[beaner]

Gary is no where near Roy or the Top 5 in recruiting though. He's certainly up there in the X's and O's of the game though, the guy is as good of an in-game coach as there is anywhere.

He doesn't all of a sudden need to be Billy Donovan recruiting, either. I don't think we have to have 5 McDonald's All-Americans to win. But one or two would be nice, or at least the really talented, if very raw, kids. The guys like Chris Wilcox. Not the players like Jerome Burney who are both raw and only average talents. Just get out there, work really hard and get a couple nice players, and make sure they end up on the court at Maryland.

Danny Miller, Travis Garrison, Mike Jones, and Johnny Rhodes are Gary's only McDonalds guys, correct? He's better, in fact, much better with the "solid" prospects.

[Mackus]

Danny Miller, Travis Garrison, Mike Jones, and Johnny Rhodes are Gary's only McDonalds guys, correct? He's better, in fact, much better with the "solid" prospects.

I didn't really mean McD AA's specifically as the guys that get to play in the game, rather as legit top-50 or so recruits. It'd be nice to get a couple of those guys every year.

Gary does best not necessarily with the guys that are lower recruits, but with guys that can learn for a year before being asked to be relied upon. Sean Moseley is a perfect example of the type of player Gary wants. He's gonna be terrific, but this year he can be eased in. He'll help out a lot some games, but won't be relied upon until next year. We usually don't have breakout freshman. Almost every big time star at Maryland recently broke out during their sophomore year. Vasquez, Gilchrist, Wilcox, Morris, Baxter, Dixon. The sophomore year is when Maryland's guy break out. I want guys that you can see their talent as evident right away, but who are eased in over their first year.

[beaner]

I didn't really mean McD AA's specifically as the guys that get to play in the game, rather as legit top-50 or so recruits. It'd be nice to get a couple of those guys every year.

Gary does best not necessarily with the guys that are lower recruits, but with guys that can learn for a year before being asked to be relied upon. Sean Moseley is a perfect example of the type of player Gary wants. He's gonna be terrific, but this year he can be eased in. He'll help out a lot some games, but won't be relied upon until next year. We usually don't have breakout freshman. Almost every big time star at Maryland recently broke out during their sophomore year. Vasquez, Gilchrist, Wilcox, Morris, Baxter, Dixon. The sophomore year is when Maryland's guy break out. I want guys that you can see their talent as evident right away, but who are eased in over their first year.

Great point! Guys who aren't expected to be stars right away, but develop. I think guys like Jones and Garrison are considered "disappointments" because of their status coming in. As opposed to a Joe Smith, Steve Blake, Juan Dixon, or whoever who are given time to develop. Smith might be a bad example since he was so good, so early, but he wasn't expected to be a star like he was. I've used the term "coaches up", and that's where Gary excels in my opinion, always has.

Even back at BC guys like John Bagley and Dana Barros ended up having nice NBA careers after playing for Gary. I"m sure there are more, Chris Jent comes to mind too. The guy can coach, whether it's 1981, 2001, or now, that doesn't change.

[Dr. FLK]

The guy can coach, whether it's 1981, 2001, or now, that doesn't change.

So can a lot of people. Being a "great college coach" is large part due to recruiting...and he stinks in that department. I'm sure the guy is fantastic at X's and O's...but I'll take a guy who knows how to stock the pantry a little better.