1/14 @ Miami

[accinfo]

So can a lot of people. Being a "great college coach" is large part due to recruiting...and he stinks in that department. I'm sure the guy is fantastic at X's and O's...but I'll take a guy who knows how to stock the pantry a little better.

This is the total point. And When I raise the fact that Gary William's coaching record is pretty ordinary when Juan Dixon wasn't playing for him that is what I am trying to get across. I never said Gary didn't have success before Dixon or after it but it isn't close to the same level. That is because Juan Dixon was a great college player. The leading scorer in the history of Maryland Basketball. No one thought he would be but never the less he was. It is fine if Gary could find players that are very underated like Dixon and they end up being that good but that was a freak of nature is not likely to happen again.

Gary Williams coaching record with Dixon was 110-31 .780 winning % over all.

49-15 in the ACC for a .766 winning %. Two Final-4's 1 National Championship, a Sweet 16 and a second round appearance. His NCAA record was 13-3. Outstanding but for 4 years.

Gary Williams has coached 29 years, his record for the 25 years without Dixon is 494-310 .614 winning % overall, His conference records add up to 202-196 or JUST a .508 winning%. Which is very ordinary. In 25 other years he has won 14 -11 in the tournament with 11 appearances in 25 years.

You need the players. Gary has compiled many more wins with lessor players then I would suspect many coaches would. He deserves credit for that. Maryland should have the talent. There are more or as many talented high school players within a 200 mile circumference of College Park then any college in the nation. These excuses about he does it right and doesn't cow tow to AAU coaches are just excuses. It is also a lie they don't admit academic questionable kids. Every JUCO fits that boat. Dixon, Baxter, Wilcox, Terrence Morris, Travis Garrison, Chris McCray, Sean Mosely to name a few were all marginal students. Maryland should expect to be an NCAA tournament team at the minimum every year.

[BaltimoreTerp]

This is the total point. And When I raise the fact that Gary William's coaching record is pretty ordinary when Juan Dixon wasn't playing for him that is what I am trying to get across. I never said Gary didn't have success before Dixon or after it but it isn't close to the same level. That is because Juan Dixon was a great college player. The leading scorer in the history of Maryland Basketball. No one thought he would be but never the less he was. It is fine if Gary could find players that are very underated like Dixon and they end up being that good but that was a freak of nature is not likely to happen again.

Gary Williams coaching record with Dixon was 110-31 .780 winning % over all.

49-15 in the ACC for a .766 winning %. Two Final-4's 1 National Championship, a Sweet 16 and a second round appearance. His NCAA record was 13-3. Outstanding but for 4 years.

Gary Williams has coached 29 years, his record for the 25 years without Dixon is 494-310 .614 winning % overall, His conference records add up to 202-196 or JUST a .508 winning%. Which is very ordinary. In 25 other years he has won 14 -11 in the tournament with 11 appearances in 25 years.

You need the players. Gary has compiled many more wins with lessor players then I would suspect many coaches would. He deserves credit for that. Maryland should have the talent. There are more or as many talented high school players within a 200 mile circumference of College Park then any college in the nation. These excuses about he does it right and doesn't cow tow to AAU coaches are just excuses. It is also a lie they don't admit academic questionable kids. Every JUCO fits that boat. Dixon, Baxter, Wilcox, Terrence Morris, Travis Garrison, Chris McCray, Sean Mosely to name a few were all marginal students. Maryland should expect to be an NCAA tournament team at the minimum every year.

Mike Krzyzewski had a .551 winning percentage in five years at Army, with one NIT appearance.

[BaltBird 24]

Mike Krzyzewski had a .551 winning percentage in five years at Army, with one NIT appearance.

What are you trying to say? Look at K's record at Duke and you'll see that he has been able to win with whoever he puts on the floor. He just doesn't have a streak of 6-7-8 greats years of basketball that he happened to luck into with a few key players.

I'd also say a .551 at Army is alot more impressive than having a .614 at Maryland on a Dixon-less team.

[accinfo]

Baltbird I'd love to hear you back up your reasons for your dream come true Mike Brey.

Because Brey has a network of friends in the AAU ciruciut in the Mid-Atlantic region that would help him get good players to Maryland. Better players then he can get to Notre Dame because of their much more extreme addmissions and the location of South Bend versus the east coast. Because he has still bothered to win many Big East games with lesser athletic talent because that is who he could get into school. Oh YEa he also graduated ALL of his players. He will shake hands and kiss babys with these so called high school talent brokers. His former great Delaware player and good friend of Brey's Mike Pegues is a coach of the 17 year old DC Assault team for just one example.

[Tony-OH]

Mike Krzyzewski had a .551 winning percentage in five years at Army, with one NIT appearance.

What's your point? That Coach K was almost as good as Gary Williams while he coached a military academy? I can't even possibly see how this could help your argument at all.

[Tony-OH]

This is the total point. And When I raise the fact that Gary William's coaching record is pretty ordinary when Juan Dixon wasn't playing for him that is what I am trying to get across. I never said Gary didn't have success before Dixon or after it but it isn't close to the same level. That is because Juan Dixon was a great college player. The leading scorer in the history of Maryland Basketball. No one thought he would be but never the less he was. It is fine if Gary could find players that are very underated like Dixon and they end up being that good but that was a freak of nature is not likely to happen again.

Gary Williams coaching record with Dixon was 110-31 .780 winning % over all.

49-15 in the ACC for a .766 winning %. Two Final-4's 1 National Championship, a Sweet 16 and a second round appearance. His NCAA record was 13-3. Outstanding but for 4 years.

Gary Williams has coached 29 years, his record for the 25 years without Dixon is 494-310 .614 winning % overall, His conference records add up to 202-196 or JUST a .508 winning%. Which is very ordinary. In 25 other years he has won 14 -11 in the tournament with 11 appearances in 25 years.

You need the players. Gary has compiled many more wins with lessor players then I would suspect many coaches would. He deserves credit for that. Maryland should have the talent. There are more or as many talented high school players within a 200 mile circumference of College Park then any college in the nation. These excuses about he does it right and doesn't cow tow to AAU coaches are just excuses. It is also a lie they don't admit academic questionable kids. Every JUCO fits that boat. Dixon, Baxter, Wilcox, Terrence Morris, Travis Garrison, Chris McCray, Sean Mosely to name a few were all marginal students. Maryland should expect to be an NCAA tournament team at the minimum every year.

Best post of this thread period. Thanks for some more facts that back up our argument. Only continued losing will change a few apologists minds but this is just like Brian Billick arguments we used to have all the time.

I'd say, he's won only one playoff game since his Super Bowl run and they'd make excuse, after excuse, after excuse. The Ravens finally did the right thing and bam, the Ravens are a much better team. Take away one magical season with possibly the best NFL defense ever and Brian Billick won one playoff game. Take away Juan Dixon, and Maryland is a run of the mill ACC program while Williams has been here and now it's heading towards the bottom of the pack.

I call things as I see them. I'm not going to continue to make excuses for coaches who's team under perform. For a year or two I can understand, but when it becomes a constant, then something needs to change.

I know most Maryland alums are enamored with Williams and I understand that. It's just simple psychology. Young, impressionable minds are easily swayed into a group thought process by a strong leadership figure. It's not that the apologists aren't smart guys, it's just they are incapable of seeing the faults of their "leader" or they do, they believe he can fix them no matter how much evidence that shows he's not going to change.

Almost to a poster on here you can tell who went to Maryland and who roots for teams in the ACC besides Maryland, because they are the ones in support of Williams. If I were a fan or another team I'd want to see Williams stay around too because I'd like the Terps being mediocre. Who wants another Duke and North Carolina in the conference?

Williams is not a only a poor recruiter but he's a lazy recruiter and that's what really gets my goat. I hate laziness. Williams actually gave part of his recruiting budget back to the University because he didn't use it all. Well, that tells me he wasn't working hard enough to use it.

His style doesn't work on this generation of athletes and although

I do think he's an above average in game coach for the most part, that doesn't overcome his giant short comings in the recruiting department. This is how we end up with an ACC team with no inside game, and only two above average college players in Vasquez and Bowie. This is how we play Morgan State and don't even look more athletic on the court.

Gary has been given his chance and he's had a good run. He should do what's right and retire after this season so the University doesn't have to fire him. I actually don't want to see him fired either. I prefer to see him go out on his terms this off season because it's good for everyone. However, if he's not willing to do what's right, and I don't think he has it in him to admit he can't do this anymore at this level, then the University needs to do what's best for the program and fire him.

[Pedro Cerrano]

This is the total point. And When I raise the fact that Gary William's coaching record is pretty ordinary when Juan Dixon wasn't playing for him that is what I am trying to get across. I never said Gary didn't have success before Dixon or after it but it isn't close to the same level. That is because Juan Dixon was a great college player. The leading scorer in the history of Maryland Basketball. No one thought he would be but never the less he was. It is fine if Gary could find players that are very underated like Dixon and they end up being that good but that was a freak of nature is not likely to happen again.

Gary Williams coaching record with Dixon was 110-31 .780 winning % over all.

49-15 in the ACC for a .766 winning %. Two Final-4's 1 National Championship, a Sweet 16 and a second round appearance. His NCAA record was 13-3. Outstanding but for 4 years.

Gary Williams has coached 29 years, his record for the 25 years without Dixon is 494-310 .614 winning % overall, His conference records add up to 202-196 or JUST a .508 winning%. Which is very ordinary. In 25 other years he has won 14 -11 in the tournament with 11 appearances in 25 years.

You need the players. Gary has compiled many more wins with lessor players then I would suspect many coaches would. He deserves credit for that. Maryland should have the talent. There are more or as many talented high school players within a 200 mile circumference of College Park then any college in the nation. These excuses about he does it right and doesn't cow tow to AAU coaches are just excuses. It is also a lie they don't admit academic questionable kids. Every JUCO fits that boat. Dixon, Baxter, Wilcox, Terrence Morris, Travis Garrison, Chris McCray, Sean Mosely to name a few were all marginal students. Maryland should expect to be an NCAA tournament team at the minimum every year.

That is very very disturbing. After next season he could very well be UNDER .500 for his non-Dixon career in ACC play. And this guy is a lifer? Better coaches have been fired for less...

[glenn__davis]

That is very very disturbing. After next season he could very well be UNDER .500 for his non-Dixon career in ACC play. And this guy is a lifer? Better coaches have been fired for less...

I'm tired of arguing this debate, so I've pretty much decided not to get involved in these threads anymore. But I just wanted to point out that if you're going to take the Dixon years away (which makes no sense to me, but whatever), then it's only fair to take away the first 4 years at MD in which the program was under probation. Take those years away and Williams' conference record is much better.

[accinfo]

I'm tired of arguing this debate, so I've pretty much decided not to get involved in these threads anymore. But I just wanted to point out that if you're going to take the Dixon years away (which makes no sense to me, but whatever), then it's only fair to take away the first 4 years at MD in which the program was under probation. Take those years away and Williams' conference record is much better.

His ACC record during those 4 years was 18-42 so you take that our and his conference record is 184-154 which is again a very ordinary 544 winning percentage. The first team that you are throwing out had 4 NBA players on there and only went 6-8. I love this excuse that you can't look at Gary Williams record 4 years after NCAA sanctions because that was the reason he didn't have any talent. What event has led them to not having any more talent on these teams then those? Was it winning a National Championship? What is the excuse this time around? What was Rick Pitino's record his first 4 years at Kentucky? Same exact sanctions as Maryland.

[glenn__davis]

His ACC record during those 4 years was 18-42 so you take that our and his conference record is 184-154 which is again a very ordinary 544 winning percentage. The first team that you are throwing out had 4 NBA players on there and only went 6-8. I love this excuse that you can't look at Gary Williams record 4 years after NCAA sanctions because that was the reason he didn't have any talent. What event has led them to not having any more talent on these teams then those? Was it winning a National Championship? What is the excuse this time around? What was Rick Pitino's record his first 4 years at Kentucky? Same exact sanctions as Maryland.

OK, and if you take those out and add in the Dixon years than it's .613. We can cherry-pick his stats all day to make our arguments look better.

[Mackus]

OK, and if you take those out and add in the Dixon years than it's .613. We can cherry-pick his stats all day to make our arguments look better.

Plus it wasn't just like Gary stumbled upon Juan Dixon and had 4 great years.

He still had to recruit Steve Francis, LaRon Profit, Terrell Stokes, Lonny Baxter, Steve Blake, Byron Mouton, Chris Wilcox, Drew Nicholas, and all the other guys who made those teams as great as they were.

Dixon was the best player, but he wasn't the only one.

I don't mind if people are critical of Gary's recent years, there certainly is plenty of room for criticism, but attacking his past is just ignorant.

[ccbird]

Plus it wasn't just like Gary stumbled upon Juan Dixon and had 4 great years.

He still had to recruit Steve Francis, LaRon Profit, Terrell Stokes, Lonny Baxter, Steve Blake, Byron Mouton, Chris Wilcox, Drew Nicholas, and all the other guys who made those teams as great as they were.

Dixon was the best player, but he wasn't the only one.

I don't mind if people are critical of Gary's recent years, there certainly is plenty of room for criticism, but attacking his past is just ignorant.

IMO, here is the big question. If Gary can get us back to the '93-2000 results is that good enough??? Is being a consistent tourny team that make some sweet 16 runs but never really threatens for a National Title really all we should be striving towards. I do believe it is possible, I can't say likely anymore, that Gary can get this program back to its mid '90s stature. Still though, I believe this program should expect better that. After '02 if you had told fans we would go through the rest of the decade never again getting past the Sweet 16 how many of them would've been satisfied. Now we've regressed so far below the '02 expectations that if Gary gets us back to one Sweet 16 he will have certain people praising him for getting the program back to where he had it pre 2001.

[Mashed Potatoes]

I haven't poked my head in these debates too much but I think 2 things are very obvious.

1. Gary's a championship caliber coach in games and in practice.

2. Gary's recruiting efforts and results of the past 5 years have been unacceptable.

Where do we go from here? I don't think that the current staff will miraculously improve their recruiting abilities. Does that mean Gary should go? I don't think so right now. However I think Yow needs to sit Gary down and make some serious demands. He needs new blood on the staff who are able to bring home the bacon. He needs this program to at least make the NCAAs the next two years.

In two seasons (after this one) if I don't see a change then I am OK with him getting the boot. I still have faith that he can turn this around, thus the window to right the ship.

[Mackus]

IMO, here is the big question. If Gary can get us back to the '93-2000 results is that good enough??? Is being a consistent tourny team that make some sweet 16 runs but never really threatens for a National Title really all we should be striving towards.

I'd be fine with the program getting back to the level it was from '93-'00. Not the exact results, but at that level.

You said we never really threatened for a National Title in that time frame, and you are right in the sense that we never made it beyond the Sweet 16 in that timeframe, but we definitely had a couple teams that could have been expected to make the Final 4 heading into the tournament. Several of those teams were ranked in the top 10 in that era and all of them were in the top-25 at some point each season.

A team that is in the top-25 (NCAA tourney) nearly year-in and year-out and that once every fer years can be a legit Final 4 / National Championship contender is the type of program I think we should be, if not better.

[ccbird]

I'd be fine with the program getting back to the level it was from '93-'00. Not the exact results, but at that level.

You said we never really threatened for a National Title in that time frame, and you are right in the sense that we never made it beyond the Sweet 16 in that timeframe, but we definitely had a couple teams that could have been expected to make the Final 4 heading into the tournament. Several of those teams were ranked in the top 10 in that era and all of them were in the top-25 at some point each season.

A team that is in the top-25 (NCAA tourney) nearly year-in and year-out and that once every fer years can be a legit Final 4 / National Championship contender is the type of program I think we should be, if not better.

Ok, I agree Gary had a couple of teams who at the time were considered legit Final Four contenders heading into the tournament. The '94 and '99 teams were both concensus top 10 teams that year. Here is my beef, we got beat handily in both of our Sweet 16 games to UConn and St Johns respectively. IMO, he got severly outcoached in both of those games and that really was becoming the knock on Gary pre '01. Suprisingly, more people were questioning his coaching ability than his recruiting ability in 2000. I only bring this up because I do think a lot of Maryland fans tend to overrate his coaching ability. He is a good X's and O's coach but when I hear people say he is one of the best in the game I chuckle. I understand the NC puts him on a pedestal for some people and I understand people appreciating his knack for getting his team up for big games and knocking off highly ranked opponents. However, he also has had a knack for not having his team ready to play games(pretty much the ACC Tourny ever year) and for not competing at all in big time games.(2000 UCLA, St Johns, UConn, almost every late '90s Duke game).