Jordan Westburg’s D

[OriolesMagic83]

2 hours ago, Tony-OH said:

That's funny, but in all reality, Ortiz is better at every position than Westburg. That's not a hit on Westburg, but more of how good Ortiz's glove is overall.

Westburg's bat is better at every position too.

[Frobby]

39 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

I’ll take Westburg at second, Ortiz at SS and Gunnar at third for the rest of the season please.

I’d love to see a lot of that.  

[CaptainRedbeard]

44 minutes ago, Frobby said:

I always felt that people misinterpreted reports that Ortiz and Gunnar were better than Westburg defensively as meaning that Westburg was either only adequate or below average.  He’s pretty solid if you ask me.  It’s just that Ortiz is really outstanding, and Gunnar is really good.  

This was the Fangraphs write up from this off-season:

Even though he’s on the doorstep of the big leagues, Westburg doesn’t have a clear position yet. He’s played all over the infield but his arm is best suited to play second base, maybe even left field eventually. Seemingly similar to other upper-level hitters with bat-first (some would argue bat-only) profiles, Westburg’s handedness slides him behind guys like Jonathan Aranda, Edouard Julien and Michael Busch, while other righty bats like Miguel Vargasand Spencer Steer have superior bat-to-ball skills. There has to be some separation between Westburg and that group of 50s to account for his combination of strikeouts and below-average defense. He’s still pretty likely to poke out 20-25 homers while playing fringy infield defense, a complementary regular who needs a late-inning replacement.

Now, Fangraphs was much lower on Westburg than others due to the evaluation of his defense, but that doesn’t sound like the player we’ve seen this year in the slightest.  That’s a pretty terrible eval and so far he’s looked like a plus defender at 2B. Very happy he’s apparently proven them wrong.

The Orioles’ development has justifiably gotten a lot of attention for their hitting performances by prospects, but maybe we’re overlooking what they are able to do with development defensively as well. Gunnar also looks much better as a SS than what he was billed as IMO. 

[Sports Guy]

36 minutes ago, OriolesMagic83 said:

Westburg's bat is better at every position too.

Maybe 

[dystopia]

Just now, CaptainRedbeard said:

This was the Fangraphs write up from this off-season:

Even though he’s on the doorstep of the big leagues, Westburg doesn’t have a clear position yet. He’s played all over the infield but his arm is best suited to play second base, maybe even left field eventually. Seemingly similar to other upper-level hitters with bat-first (some would argue bat-only) profiles, Westburg’s handedness slides him behind guys like Jonathan Aranda, Edouard Julien and Michael Busch, while other righty bats like Miguel Vargasand Spencer Steer have superior bat-to-ball skills. There has to be some separation between Westburg and that group of 50s to account for his combination of strikeouts and below-average defense. He’s still pretty likely to poke out 20-25 homers while playing fringy infield defense, a complementary regular who needs a late-inning replacement.

Now, Fangraphs was much lower on Westburg than others due to the evaluation of his defense, but that doesn’t sound like the player we’ve seen this year in the slightest.  That’s a pretty terrible eval and so far he’s looked like a plus defender at 2B. Very happy he’s apparently proven them wrong.

The Orioles’ development has justifiably gotten a lot of attention for their hitting performances by prospects, but maybe we’re overlooking what they are able to do with development defensively as well. Gunnar also looks much better as a SS than what he was billed as IMO. 

Fangraphs is overrated.

[IPlayGM]

37 minutes ago, OriolesMagic83 said:

Westburg's bat is better at every position too.

But is it? Their AAA numbers would not say that. It is so weird to me how the Os have treated them so oppositely. Westburg is brought up with trumpets blaring, hype videos, etc. Ortiz is yo-yo’d back and forth, given 30 sporadic at bats and now deemed the lesser player. I would venture that if you bring Ortiz up and give him equal playing time, thoughts would be different.  
And that isn’t taking anything away from Westburg, who I am extremely impressed with.

[Tony-OH]

48 minutes ago, OriolesMagic83 said:

Westburg's bat is better at every position too.

There is a power tradeoff for sure, but don't discount Ortiz's bat too much. 

AAA stats

Ortiz           .338/.394/.558/.951, 26 BB, 52 Ks in 310 PAs
Westburg   .283/.366/.533/.899, 73 BB, 154 K in 714 PAs

I think too many people are taking Ortiz's small sample size when he was up, in which he got very inconsistent playing time, and put too much emphasis on that. 

Ortiz finally got basic every day PAs from May 14th to 21st and after the first three games where he went hitless, he hit .455/.455/.546/1.000 over his next five games before being sent back to AAA. 

Since going back down to the minors, and despite Westburg and Cowser getting promotions, he's slashed .348/.434/.500/.934 with 7 double and 7-10 BB-K ratio in 11 games over 53 PAs.

Ortiz is going to be an everyday SS for someone and would look darn good as the everyday SS or 2B right now, but because of Frazier and Mateo he's in AAA. 

 

[Sports Guy]

3 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

There is a power tradeoff for sure, but don't discount Ortiz's bat too much. 

AAA stats

Ortiz           .338/.394/.558/.951, 26 BB, 52 Ks in 310 PAs
Westburg   .283/.366/.533/.899, 73 BB, 154 K in 714 PAs

I think too many people are taking Ortiz's small sample size when he was up, in which he got very inconsistent playing time, and put too much emphasis on that. 

Ortiz finally got basic every day PAs from May 14th to 21st and after the first three games where he went hitless, he hit .455/.455/.546/1.000 over his next five games before being sent back to AAA. 

Since going back down to the minors, and despite Westburg and Cowser getting promotions, he's slashed .348/.434/.500/.934 with 7 double and 7-10 BB-K ratio in 11 games over 53 PAs.

Ortiz is going to be an everyday SS for someone and would look darn good as the everyday SS or 2B right now, but because of Frazier and Mateo he's in AAA. 

 

And let’s not forget that Ortiz had some elite exit velos in the minors. 
 

There is no better example of regency bias than Os fans talking Westburg vs Ortiz.

[Frobby]

43 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

And let’s not forget that Ortiz had some elite exit velos in the minors. 
 

There is no better example of regency bias than Os fans talking Westburg vs Ortiz.

There are only a couple of posters who were judging Ortiz off his miniscule sample in the majors (one of whom was banned from the site for unrelated reasons).   Most people know that his lengthy minor league record is more relevant.   

That said, I do think Westburg will prove to be the better hitter.  But I believe z Ortiz will have a decent bat and would love to see him get regular ABs in the majors.
 

[Sports Guy]

4 minutes ago, Frobby said:

There are only a couple of posters who were judging Ortiz off his miniscule sample in the majors (one of whom was banned from the site for unrelated reasons).   Most people know that his lengthy minor league record is more relevant.   

That said, I do think Westburg will prove to be the better hitter.  But I believe z Ortiz will have a decent bat and would love to see him get regular ABs in the majors.
 

Os fans don’t only exist on this site.

[Frobby]

1 minute ago, Sports Guy said:

Os fans don’t only exist on this site.

So far as I’m concerned, if you’re not posting on OH, you’re nobody!  

[CaptainRedbeard]

Ortiz actually profiles a bit better for OPACY than Westburg IMO. Westburg has a lot of pull power but he’s going to get hurt by the wall a lot more than Ortiz. Ortiz is more contact/line drive oriented and that higher AVG, doubles profile plays better when pulled 400 ft shots are fly outs. 

[Aristotelian]

2 hours ago, Sports Guy said:

I’ll take Westburg at second, Ortiz at SS and Gunnar at third for the rest of the season please.

I'd be excited to see that lineup. Also pretty excited for current lineup of Gunnar SS, Urias 3B, Westburg 2B. With Frazier and Mateo slipping out of the picture, now the question is whether Ortiz is better than Urias, and that is a tougher call. I would not be opposed to Ortiz, but I like Urias and he really hasn't done anything to lose his job. If Elias can trade Urias and improve the team, I would be on board with that. But what if he could trade Ortiz and improve the team even more? 

[Sports Guy]

2 minutes ago, Aristotelian said:

I'd be excited to see that lineup. Also pretty excited for current lineup of Gunnar SS, Urias 3B, Westburg 2B. With Frazier and Mateo slipping out of the picture, now the question is whether Ortiz is better than Urias, and that is a tougher call. I would not be opposed to Ortiz, but I like Urias and he really hasn't done anything to lose his job. If Elias can trade Urias and improve the team, I would be on board with that. But what if he could trade Ortiz and improve the team even more? 

Westburg or Ortiz need to be traded in the next year or so. I’m fine with doing it now but not for a rental.

[clapdiddy]

2 hours ago, Sports Guy said:

I’ll take Westburg at second, Ortiz at SS and Gunnar at third for the rest of the season please.

From your keyboard to Elias and Hyde's ears...