After Two Weeks of Pie...

[Mackus]

I think he honestly peaked in 2007. Since 2007 even at the AAA level he hasn't been that great. Some prospects fizzle out, Larry Bigbie for example.

The point is, while Pie has been declining, Reimold and Montanez have been getting better, and Pie should not be blocking players that are earning their chance. Pie has less of a future with the Orioles than Reimold and Montanez IMO, even though they are both older. And this season should be about determining the future. Reimold and Montanez need to be up on this team getting ABs. Their future is now.

Reimold has had two weeks at AAA. More time there can't do anything but help him.

Montanez isn't a prospect, so I don't really care about him. I'd rather have Salazar up here than Montanez (at least if Jones fine).

[JTrea81]

Neither player deserves the opportunity first over Pie.

Montanez is filler. He's nothing better than a 4th OF.

Reimold will get his chance if Pie falters. If we decide in June or July that Pie isn't going to be an answer for us, Reimold gets the remainder of the season.

Montanez should be up as a bench player, but shouldn't be handed the same type of opportunity.

Are you really willing to watch Pie flounder until June, even if it's hurting the team like it has in this Boston series?

[Boy Howdy]

And if Reimold struggles in his first three weeks up both at the plate and in left, I hope you and Trea are at least consistent. I hope you guys are, at that point, ready to call Reimold a bust and ready to look for someone else to play left field.

I also hope that, at some point, you are ready to give a young player more than three weeks to prove themselves.

JTrea won't be because he puts a lot of stock in spring training statistics.

Reimold hit .321 in the Grapefruit League, which "proved" he really wants the job...or something like that. :rofl:

[JTrea81]

Reimold has had two weeks at AAA. More time there can't do anything but help him.

Montanez isn't a prospect, so I don't really care about him. I'd rather have Salazar up here than Montanez (at least if Jones fine).

Salazar is 31 and without options, Montanez is 27 with options and a better defender than Salazar.

[df1570]

Just overheard in the O's dugout as Radhames Liz strolled in from the mound after being removed in the 7th inning.

Liz: "I'm so mad right now, I could throw something."

Rick Kranitz: "Trying throwing a strike next time out."

[McNulty]

I really love it when a thread turns into an Oldfan/JTrea zone.

[TyCobb]

And if Reimold struggles in his first three weeks up both at the plate and in left, I hope you and Trea are at least consistent. I hope you guys are, at that point, ready to call Reimold a bust and ready to look for someone else to play left field.

I also hope that, at some point, you are ready to give a young player more than three weeks to prove themselves.

I am willing to give Pie 100+ PAs. Even 200 PAs. It is one thing to let a player play its another to just give him ABs because he is young. Pie is hitting .161/.235/.258. He doesn't look good at all. IF he has OBP under .300 after 200 PA (with zero power) we are just hurting the team.

Especially when you see Reimold with a great Spring Training and a great start in AAA.

[J.D.]

Are you really willing to watch Pie flounder until June, even if it's hurting the team like it has in this Boston series?

Are you really willing to just shuttle prospects in and out if they falter while offering no opportunity to develop at the major league level and prove whether they can be an asset to a contending Orioles team in a year or two?

You're offering guys no time to develop at this level. I'm perfectly fine watching Pie develop and seeing if, in June or July, he's getting closer to reaching his ceiling or not. In fact, watching Pie develop was one of the things I was really looking forward to this year. We knew getting into this that he was raw at the plate. He's going to get better reading the ball as well.

I'm glad upper management doesn't lack the patience that you seem to lack.

[BirdMan]

This is nonsense.

The trade wasn't a mistake, and if you can't see the similarities between Pie and Jones, you aren't looking.

Nobody has said Pie will be as good as or is better than Jones. Just that they've had similar minor league numbers, Pie's even better sometimes, but obviously Pie has been older so that tempers his ceiling a bit.

Pie deserves every chance. People just need to shut up and watch him play. Judging him after a couple games, good or bad, is worthless. Give him a couple months and then evaluate him then. If he's doing what you want to see, give him more time. If he's not, make a change.

I do not need a couple of months. The only comparison between Jones and Pie is that they both play the outfield. Jones plays it well and Pie does not.

I am tired of seeing Pie have balls drop in front and in back of him. Not to mention him dropping the ball when trying to transfer the ball from glove to hand.

Today was the first good chance to see his arm, with a play at the plate. He was only 15 feet up the first base line and late.

You keep living off of one homerun and one great catch. Live in the present not the past.

[Mackus]

Are you really willing to watch Pie flounder until June, even if it's hurting the team like it has in this Boston series?

Yes. I have zero interest in giving Montanez a full-time starting spot. If Pie got hurt or wasn't available, the option I go with right now is Scott back to LF, Salazar up and to DH, and Reimold gets his Pie-like opportunity in July or so.

Pie gets two to three months to show what he can do. Two weeks is, obviously, meaningless. Nobody would be claiming he's proven he's an answer if he had 4 HR and a .315 BA right now, just as nobody can legitimately claim that he's proven he's not an answer after two poor weeks.

Even two months isn't a whole lot of time, but I think we can see in his performance, if not in his stats, what he'll be capable of within that timeframe. If he's struggling and Reimold is knocking loudly, I'd make the change then. But as long as Pie can hold down the job successfully, its his this year. I still expect him to be able to get things going, he's got a ton of talent and I actually think his plate discipline has been decent. And I'm 100% positive his glove will be a major asset in LF if given time to get used to playing out there.

[Lester Freamon]

The trade was not a mistake. It was worth the chance. The problem is we are now making it a mistake. He is holding two players back that could benefit from the major league experience. Both players are better than him.

Well, I don't know if we know that for a fact yet or not. This is why we need to give Pie more time.

Montanez is not really expected to be a starter, he's considered more of a 4th OFer. Again, I think Montanez should be here, but at Freel's expense. Once we traded for Adino the FO had the option, IMO, of going in this direction. Although, obviously, we hope he proves most people wrong and shows that he can be an everyday player. Pie may end up as nothing more then a 4th OFer, but we don't know for sure yet.

Then again, if Lou gets the call and forces the matter, maybe he'll get a chance to show whether or not he can be an everyday player. But, IMHO, Pie gets first crack.

Reimold, OTOH, is not being hurt by playing everyday in Norfolk. He's never played AAA until this year. For him, I don't think it hurts to get this exposure.

[J.D.]

I am willing to give Pie 100+ PAs. Even 200 PAs. It is one thing to let a player play its another to just give him ABs because he is young. Pie is hitting .161/.235/.258. He doesn't look good at all. IF he has OBP under .300 after 200 PA (with zero power) we are just hurting the team.

Especially when you see Reimold with a great Spring Training and a great start in AAA.

So, you're willing to do to him what the Cubs did to him, then.

I did see Reimold with a great Spring Training. I also saw Guthrie with an awful spring training. I wasn't ready to hand Reimold LF just like I wasn't ready to move Guthrie to the bullpen.

I'd rather give Pie a chance to prove himself at the Major League level. And I don't think that 100 ABs or 200 ABs are going to do it.

[RShack]

Corey Patterson made Web Gems a bunch of times as well, but it didn't mean he was a good defensive CFer.

Just because Pie makes flashy plays doesn't mean he makes the routine ones.

Corey Patterson was a much better fielder than many Gold Glovers.

He had a +34 rating in 2006. That is going to skew those #'s quite hard. It means he was only a +3 combined in 2007 and 2008.

So you're saying he's overrated because he some years he was only above-average in the major leagues at the hardest OF position, and some years he was damn near the best outfielder on the planet?

Not sure what CPat has to do with this, but IMO he was a mediocre OF'er in terms of instincts who covered for it with his speed.

I have nothing against the guy, and I liked watching him run. But while he was here, he was something of a minor mystery to me, so I watched him closely. With the exception of a couple games, it was all on TV, but I did look closely, just to see what was what. So, while you might think my opinion is wrong, it's not a half-assed opinion, it is a carefully formed opinion. IMO CPat is a good athlete who lacks baseball instincts. He made lots of dramatic-looking plays that should have been easy and non-dramatic, using speed to race to a ball that he got a late jump on. Perhaps the most striking thing was that he could not go back on a flyball if his life depended on it. Generally fast and graceful, it he had to go straight back, he'd sometimes trip over his own feet. It was very out of character with the rest of him, but it happened enough to be predictable. I think this is way he generally positioned himself noticeably deeper than was normal for other guys, which in turn increased how far he had to run to get to a lot of pretty normal F8's.

I am truly puzzled by his 1 year of good D-stats. This is because I buy the idea of the whole +/- play metric. It makes perfect sense to me, and the methodology seems sound. Yet it shows results for CPat that conflict with my eyeballs. So, what am I supposed to believe: a stat I respect or my own lying eyes? My lying eyes tell me that CPat will never be a good ML ballplayer because his fatal weakness is that his lack of baseball instincts outweighs his athleticism. The same thing is true in the field, at the plate, and on the bases. To me, CPat is that anti-BRob. BRob's instincts make him a whole lot better than his OK-but-not-great athleticism, and CPat is the exact opposite.

The only relevance this has to Pie is that, if I trust me eyes, then CPat is an example of a good athlete with lousy baseball instincts. But it took a while to notice that. What we're seeing with Pie is completely different than that. It's as if his natural athleticism has temporarily abandoned him. Or something.

[JTrea81]

Are you really willing to just shuttle prospects in and out if they falter while offering no opportunity to develop at the major league level and prove whether they can be an asset to a contending Orioles team in a year or two?

I'm willing to give playing time to players that have shown they earned it. Pie has not shown anything since his time in AAA in 2007.

Meanwhile Montanez raked in AA and at the ML level last year, and Reimold blew up in the AA playoffs and both had good springs. And both are raking in AAA right now.

[Mackus]

I do not need a couple of months.

Did you with Nick Markakis? Adam Jones? Markakis was far worse than Pie's been both offensively and defensively in his first cup of coffee.

Jumping to conclusions is a bad thing. Never a good thing. Whether you end up being proven right or wrong on this specific player is irrelevant. If all you are willing to give a young player, in a year where he can suck all year long and it won't cost us anything, is two weeks, then that's really all you need to say about how you judge players. Its a terrible, terrible way to do things. I'm glad our front office and coaching staff isn't as knee-jerk in their reactions.