Rosenthal: Orioles Join Holliday Bidding

[Sports Guy]

And that's what worries me. AM is a guy that I want rebuilding my organization, but I don't know if he's the guy that can get the O's to the World Series if that's the extent of his strategy.

Yep..I have the same worry.

I think we are going to need to hope to find another Miggy contract OR another steal of a deal like Derek Lee and ARam were for him.

Its tough to rely on those things though but unfortunately, i think we need to do just that.

[VeveJones007]

Yep..I have the same worry.

I think we are going to need to hope to find another Miggy contract OR another steal of a deal like Derek Lee and ARam were for him.

Its tough to rely on those things though but unfortunately, i think we need to do just that.

I guess if that's the strategy, we just better hope that Wieters actually develops into that .950 OPS monster and that Matusz and Tillman become TOR starters. I just think it would add so much if he would just overpay and grab either one of those things in the open market.

That's not to say that I think Holliday or A-Gon are that guy. I just wish I knew that when guys like Reyes, Fielder, A-Gon, etc. hit the market, that he would go get someone rather than wait for the market to set itself when the core is ready.

[Peace21]

Would you, if you were AM offer Holliday the same offer that they offered to Markakis?

[Roll Tide]

Would you, if you were AM offer Holliday the same offer that they offered to Markakis?

I would ...Yes...If the Orioles really are interedted in him they should.

[RVAbird]

Would you, if you were AM offer Holliday the same offer that they offered to Markakis?

wut?

Am I reading this right? You mean 6/66? Of course...but the two situations are not comparable.

The Orioles were first buying out Markakis' three arbitration eligible seasons, for which they would have paid anyway, and then tacked on three additional FA seasons.

They structured the deal the following way:

2009 (Arb): 3 MM

2010 (Arb): 6.75 MM

2011 (Arb): 10.25 MM

2012 (FA): 12 MM

2013 (FA): 15 MM

2014 (FA): 15 MM

With a ~2 MM signing bonus.

They basically guaranteed Markakis his Arb seasons for around the price he'd likely receive anyway, and then bought out three FA seasons at 3/42.

If Markakis had been a FA he would never have settled for such a deal. Neither will Holliday.

Am I misinterpreting you here?

[Demper]

And that's what worries me. AM is a guy that I want rebuilding my organization, but I don't know if he's the guy that can get the O's to the World Series if that's the extent of his strategy.

Yes, because MacPhail did such a terrible job with getting those Minnesota Twins to the World Series....

[Capn Vivi]

Yes, because MacPhail did such a terrible job with getting those Minnesota Twins to the World Series....

In his 10 seasons between '85 and '94, MacPhail's Twins had 4 winning seasons (85,91,95, and 90 wins, respectively) with two world series victories. The AL East's division winner and runner up the last 8 years have had win totals of: 103/95, 97/95, 96/94, 97/87, 95/95, 101/98, 101/95, and 103/93. It's so much harder to compete in the AL East than the Central, MacPhail's pedigree only qualifies him for this job and certainly doesn't guarantee success.

[Demper]

In his 10 seasons between '85 and '94, MacPhail's Twins had 4 winning seasons (85,91,95, and 90 wins, respectively) with two world series victories. The AL East's division winner and runner up the last 8 years have had win totals of: 103/95, 97/95, 96/94, 97/87, 95/95, 101/98, 101/95, and 103/93. It's so much harder to compete in the AL East than the Central, MacPhail's pedigree only qualifies him for this job and certainly doesn't guarantee success.

A fair point to be sure, but still nevertheless those Twins WS winning teams still had to get through the best teams from the AL and ultimately the best team from the NL to get that title. So while I won't argue it's more challenging to compete in the AL East, I don't know if it means anything about MacPhail's ability to construct a good and/or championship-contending team.

As to the latent obsession around here with signing the big name free agents, I sort of get it. I mean I guess you just get sick of everyone going to the Red Sox and Yankees. But it is, has been, and will continue to be, all about our farm system and whether guys like Matusz or Tillman pan out. I think Teixeira was about the only free agent who really filled a long term need for us and was worth the tremendous financial commitment. With Holliday, I don't get it. Wasn't he awful in the AL last year? I mean sure, there might be nothing to it, but if I'm going to give a guy that much money, I'd want a bit more of a proven track record.

[JTrea81]

A fair point to be sure, but still nevertheless those Twins WS winning teams still had to get through the best teams from the AL and ultimately the best team from the NL to get that title. So while I won't argue it's more challenging to compete in the AL East, I don't know if it means anything about MacPhail's ability to construct a good and/or championship-contending team.

As to the latent obsession around here with signing the big name free agents, I sort of get it. I mean I guess you just get sick of everyone going to the Red Sox and Yankees. But it is, has been, and will continue to be, all about our farm system and whether guys like Matusz or Tillman pan out. I think Teixeira was about the only free agent who really filled a long term need for us and was worth the tremendous financial commitment. With Holliday, I don't get it. Wasn't he awful in the AL last year? I mean sure, there might be nothing to it, but if I'm going to give a guy that much money, I'd want a bit more of a proven track record.

His "awful" half a season would have lead the Orioles offense. Granted an .860 OPS in the cleanup spot probably isn't worth 19 million per season, but that's including a horrid first month of April. From May through July, especially in July, he was the Holliday that we were used to seeing.

And keep in mind, Busch Stadium is not a hitting friendly ballpark and Holliday obliterated the ball there.

[24fps]

A fair point to be sure, but still nevertheless those Twins WS winning teams still had to get through the best teams from the AL and ultimately the best team from the NL to get that title. So while I won't argue it's more challenging to compete in the AL East, I don't know if it means anything about MacPhail's ability to construct a good and/or championship-contending team.

As to the latent obsession around here with signing the big name free agents, I sort of get it. I mean I guess you just get sick of everyone going to the Red Sox and Yankees. But it is, has been, and will continue to be, all about our farm system and whether guys like Matusz or Tillman pan out. I think Teixeira was about the only free agent who really filled a long term need for us and was worth the tremendous financial commitment. With Holliday, I don't get it. Wasn't he awful in the AL last year? I mean sure, there might be nothing to it, but if I'm going to give a guy that much money, I'd want a bit more of a proven track record.

There's nothing latent about the obsession with signing big name free agents here. Everyone has an opinion they're more than willing to express and consequently it's both overt and exceedingly polarized.

I can't say I understand your first paragraph.

[scOtt]

wut?

Am I reading this right? You mean 6/66? Of course...but the two situations are not comparable.

The Orioles were first buying out Markakis' three arbitration eligible seasons, for which they would have paid anyway, and then tacked on three additional FA seasons.

They structured the deal the following way:

2009 (Arb): 3 MM

2010 (Arb): 6.75 MM

2011 (Arb): 10.25 MM

2012 (FA): 12 MM

2013 (FA): 15 MM

2014 (FA): 15 MM

With a ~2 MM signing bonus.

They basically guaranteed Markakis his Arb seasons for around the price he'd likely receive anyway, and then bought out three FA seasons at 3/42.

If Markakis had been a FA he would never have settled for such a deal. Neither will Holliday.

Am I misinterpreting you here?

Really! Not quite Peace's usual posting standards. 6/66 would be an insult to Holliday, an industry joke. "To pull a MacPhail".

I would ...Yes...If the Orioles really are interedted in him they should.

At least some agree.......

[SrMeowMeow]

Yep..I have the same worry.

I think we are going to need to hope to find another Miggy contract OR another steal of a deal like Derek Lee and ARam were for him.

Its tough to rely on those things though but unfortunately, i think we need to do just that.

This "can MacPhail take us to the next level" worry/complaint is nonsense. What he's doing right now is the right thing for this franchise. What you should draw from the current situation is that he is good at his job, not that he is for some reason locked in on bargain players and bargain players only.

It's like seeing Markakis for the first time and he makes a great throw to nail a runner at third and your conclusion is not "he has a great arm" but instead "I'm worried that we need a guy who can throw runners out at home".

[UMDTerrapins]

Have you ever written a long and thoughtful post, go to proof it before submitting, and come to the conclusion that after all that work, you really said nothing insightful or important at all and end up just deleting the damn thing?

This.

[scOtt]

I guess if that's the strategy, we just better hope that Wieters actually develops into that .950 OPS monster and that Matusz and Tillman become TOR starters. I just think it would add so much if he would just overpay and grab either one of those things in the open market.

That's not to say that I think Holliday or A-Gon are that guy. I just wish I knew that when guys like Reyes, Fielder, A-Gon, etc. hit the market, that he would go get someone rather than wait for the market to set itself when the core is ready.

Even us most admittedly Kool-Aid drinkers hope for that.

[scOtt]

Have you ever written a long and thoughtful post, go to proof it before submitting, and come to the conclusion that after all that work, you really said nothing insightful or important at all and end up just deleting the damn thing?

This.

Every day. Every. Day.