Rosenthal: Orioles Join Holliday Bidding

[Sports Guy]

This "can MacPhail take us to the next level" worry/complaint is nonsense. What he's doing right now is the right thing for this franchise. What you should draw from the current situation is that he is good at his job, not that he is for some reason locked in on bargain players and bargain players only.

It's like seeing Markakis for the first time and he makes a great throw to nail a runner at third and your conclusion is not "he has a great arm" but instead "I'm worried that we need a guy who can throw runners out at home".

LOL..No its not...Just because he can build the foundation, doesn;t mean he can finish the house.

AMs plan to begin with was correct..He came in here, blew it up and built with youth.

But now AM has to show he will do what it takes to turn this team into one of the top 5 teams in the sport...Meaning, he is likely going to have to spend huge dollars or make some huge trades involving a lot of young players...players he doesn't want to trade.

[clapdiddy]

I guess if that's the strategy, we just better hope that Wieters actually develops into that .950 OPS monster and that Matusz and Tillman become TOR starters. I just think it would add so much if he would just overpay and grab either one of those things in the open market.

That's not to say that I think Holliday or A-Gon are that guy. I just wish I knew that when guys like Reyes, Fielder, A-Gon, etc. hit the market, that he would go get someone rather than wait for the market to set itself when the core is ready.

There is no guarantee that any of these guys is actually going to hit the market at all.

[foxfield]

LOL..No its not...Just because he can build the foundation, doesn;t mean he can finish the house.

AMs plan to begin with was correct..He came in here, blew it up and built with youth.

But now AM has to show he will do what it takes to turn this team into one of the top 5 teams in the sport...Meaning, he is likely going to have to spend huge dollars or make some huge trades involving a lot of young players...players he doesn't want to trade.

Splitting hairs but I think the above is wrong, or maybe better put not accurate. I agree with you entirely the plan to blow it up and build with youth was and is correct. But the first part of your post appears to raise the issue that there is or should be doubt that AM can finish the house. This is where I disagree.

AM has won two World Championships, he can finish the house and that is really not debateable. Can he finish THIS house, well that is a different point. I think it is a completely different type of structure in that just to make the playoffs we have to be a top 5 team. He will have to do things that are not the same as what he has necessarily done before. So if I am splitting hairs, I apologize, but I do think it is somewhat silly to discuss AM in a can he win mentality. He can and he has.

The question is really can he do it again, and more importantly for us, can he do it here?

[Sports Guy]

Splitting hairs but I think the above is wrong, or maybe better put not accurate. I agree with you entirely the plan to blow it up and build with youth was and is correct. But the first part of your post appears to raise the issue that there is or should be doubt that AM can finish the house. This is where I disagree.

AM has won two World Championships, he can finish the house and that is really not debateable. Can he finish THIS house, well that is a different point. I think it is a completely different type of structure in that just to make the playoffs we have to be a top 5 team. He will have to do things that are not the same as what he has necessarily done before. So if I am splitting hairs, I apologize, but I do think it is somewhat silly to discuss AM in a can he win mentality. He can and he has.

The question is really can he do it again, and more importantly for us, can he do it here?

Who cares that he won before? Did he build the 1987 Twins btw?

I care if he can do what it takes to win in this division...And in the past, he hasn't shown a willingness to do what it is likely to take for us to contend, consistently, in this division.

So, he has to adapt...Can he? Will he?

[foxfield]

Who cares that he won before? Did he build the 1987 Twins btw?

I care if he can do what it takes to win in this division...And in the past, he hasn't shown a willingness to do what it is likely to take for us to contend, consistently, in this division.

So, he has to adapt...Can he? Will he?

Yes he has to adapt, just pointing out that saying that he needs to adapt in order to get us to the point of consistent contention is different than saying one should be worried if he can finish the house to use your words.

[Sports Guy]

Yes he has to adapt, just pointing out that saying that he needs to adapt in order to get us to the point of consistent contention is different than saying one should be worried if he can finish the house to use your words.

No its not...I don;t care about the house he built 20 years ago...I care about the one he is working on now.

So yes, there is plenty of reason to doubt he can/will do what it takes to win with this team.

[VeveJones007]

Yes he has to adapt, just pointing out that saying that he needs to adapt in order to get us to the point of consistent contention is different than saying one should be worried if he can finish the house to use your words.

Why is that different? "Finish the house" means winning the World Series. That's all that matters. You have a greater possibility of winning the World Series if you consistently make the playoffs. Thus the strategy to make a team that can consistently compete for a playoff spot.

I think that all SG and I are saying is this:

Say AM values a top notch free agent or trade chip at $100. If that guy would significantly increase the team's likelihood of making the playoffs and winning a championship, would he be willing to spend more than $100? If not, then we just have to hope that the market is down for some very good players (like Tejada) and that the core is truly something special. I just think there's a time and a place to be aggressive.

Again, I'm not saying that the time and place is this offseason. I just think it will be hard for the core to get us to 90-95 wins when it's ready. Hopefully one or two signings/trades before 2011 and 2012 can get the team up to that level. And, again, these worries could all be moot. AM might be more than comfortable making those big, bold moves once he feels the core is ready.

[RandyM]

I guess if that's the strategy, we just better hope that Wieters actually develops into that .950 OPS monster and that Matusz and Tillman become TOR starters. I just think it would add so much if he would just overpay and grab either one of those things in the open market.

That's not to say that I think Holliday or A-Gon are that guy. I just wish I knew that when guys like Reyes, Fielder, A-Gon, etc. hit the market, that he would go get someone rather than wait for the market to set itself when the core is ready.

Everyone hopes to wait and go after these guys next year. People need to remember, there might be a lot more teams that are ready to spend next year or the following year. Can we win a bidding war when teams like the yanks are ready to spend, no.

Everyone forgets the only reason that we got players like Tejada and almost Vlad where because most teams were out of money at that point and teams already had players committed at those positions. So we might have a better picture next year of our needs or there will be "better" places to spend our money. But you need to understand there will be more teams with money, hence much more likely we won't be able to get those guys.

Logically it seems best to wait till next year, but will be just sitting around with cash in our pocket waiting for a partner again?

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports/columnists.nsf/berniemiklasz/story/6D52C51159609E42862576910014E1B7?OpenDocument

What about Holliday in a Yankees uniform? Well, if you believe what the Yankees beat writers are reporting, the Yankees aren't willing to spend the kind of money necessary to sign Holliday. The prevailing theory in NY is that Yankees GM Brian Cashman wants to save future payroll for a more aggressive free-agent run next offseason.

[Malike]

Why is that different? "Finish the house" means winning the World Series. That's all that matters. You have a greater possibility of winning the World Series if you consistently make the playoffs. Thus the strategy to make a team that can consistently compete for a playoff spot.

I think that all SG and I are saying is this:

Say AM values a top notch free agent or trade chip at $100. If that guy would significantly increase the team's likelihood of making the playoffs and winning a championship, would he be willing to spend more than $100? If not, then we just have to hope that the market is down for some very good players (like Tejada) and that the core is truly something special. I just think there's a time and a place to be aggressive.

Again, I'm not saying that the time and place is this offseason. I just think it will be hard for the core to get us to 90-95 wins when it's ready. Hopefully one or two signings/trades before 2011 and 2012 can get the team up to that level. And, again, these worries could all be moot. AM might be more than comfortable making those big, bold moves once he feels the core is ready.

Thats not finishing the house. Finishing the house is building a team that competes for the playoffs consistently. If finishing the house was winning the world series, then 90% of the GM's can't finish the house. Build a contender, compete for the playoffs and anything can happen there.

[VeveJones007]

Thats not finishing the house. Finishing the house is building a team that competes for the playoffs consistently. If finishing the house was winning the world series, then 90% of the GM's can't finish the house. Build a contender, compete for the playoffs and anything can happen there.

I'm pretty sure that we agree...we're just arguing over context. For me, the whole point is to win the World Series. That's why they play--to win championships. They have a much higher likelihood of achieving that goal if they make the playoffs consistently, which is what you seem to be advocating. I agree wholeheartedly with that, but I don't want to lose sight of the ultimate goal.

If you don't think that's the ultimate goal, just look at the Cubs and Boston pre-2004.

[anselmO]

Red Sox offered Holliday 5/82.5 before they signed Lackey.

http://www.realgmbaseball.com/src_wiretap_archives/18134/20091219/boston_offered_holliday_$825m_before_signing_lackey/

[El Gordo]

LOL..No its not...Just because he can build the foundation, doesn;t mean he can finish the house.

AMs plan to begin with was correct..He came in here, blew it up and built with youth.

But now AM has to show he will do what it takes to turn this team into one of the top 5 teams in the sport...Meaning, he is likely going to have to spend huge dollars or make some huge trades involving a lot of young players...players he doesn't want to trade.

Next winter is the time to judge him on that. There will be a number of FA SP available and several impact bats, Also we will be in a better position to know what we have to move in terms of trade. We will probably have some holes to fill, most notably SS, but I expect we will be a lot closer to contention. That will be the time to make some big moves and then we will see.

[JTrea81]

Red Sox offered Holliday 5/82.5 before they signed Lackey.

http://www.realgmbaseball.com/src_wiretap_archives/18134/20091219/boston_offered_holliday_$825m_before_signing_lackey/

I think we've determined 5/82.5 isn't going to get it done...

[Fla_O'sfan]

Next winter is the time to judge him on that. There will be a number of FA SP available and several impact bats, Also we will be in a better position to know what we have to move in terms of trade. We will probably have some holes to fill, most notably SS, but I expect we will be a lot closer to contention. That will be the time to make some big moves and then we will see.

For the Orioles, NEXT YEAR is always the year that they will go after big name FA's. Never is when that actually will.

[scOtt]

Everyone hopes to wait and go after these guys next year. People need to remember, there might be a lot more teams that are ready to spend next year or the following year. Can we win a bidding war when teams like the yanks are ready to spend, no.

Everyone forgets the only reason that we got players like Tejada and almost Vlad where because most teams were out of money at that point and teams already had players committed at those positions. So we might have a better picture next year of our needs or there will be "better" places to spend our money. But you need to understand there will be more teams with money, hence much more likely we won't be able to get those guys.

Logically it seems best to wait till next year, but will be just sitting around with cash in our pocket waiting for a partner again?

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports/columnists.nsf/berniemiklasz/story/6D52C51159609E42862576910014E1B7?OpenDocument

What about Holliday in a Yankees uniform? Well, if you believe what the Yankees beat writers are reporting, the Yankees aren't willing to spend the kind of money necessary to sign Holliday. The prevailing theory in NY is that Yankees GM Brian Cashman wants to save future payroll for a more aggressive free-agent run next offseason.

I don't disagree with you... but the Yankees can't sign all of those guys. There should be some piece(s) that we can get.