Bergy discussions - Can we count on him now that he's a year out from his injury?

[Sanfran327]

It really tells you how devastating that injury was physically and mentally. The last thing to recover after an injury like that is your self-confidence.

This.

I think we are seeing what BB is truly capable of. I don't think he's going to throw a CG 2 hitter every 5 days, but to think he's a guy who's only barely going too crack our rotation is even further from reality.

Matusz, Tillman, and Arrieta need to show me something between now and the end of the season. I hope Matusz is just experienceing a 'dead-arm' period right now. Lots of sophomore pitchers experience the same thing. Hopefully he can tread water through the rest of the year, go back to Arizona during the winter and work hard on his conditioning again, and come back in February 100% fresh and ready to mow 'em down.

I don't know what to make out of Arrieta and Tillman yet. I'm starting to think it would be wiser to trade Tillman to an NL team for a bat. Britton can replace him in the rotation. I also think Arrieta's eventual role on this team is closer. A few FAs can replace Millwood and Arrieta in the rotation.

[Crazysilver03]

Hate to burst the bubbles, but...

Did he look better after the 6th? Because I watched though the 6th, and he was more lucky than good. He was getting line drives and fly balls - the sinker wasn't sinking. Through 6 about half his pitches were balls too.

Don't forget, this was the Indians.

That was one of the important things about last night, he got better as he got deeper in to the game. Most of his strike-outs came late in the game.

[crowmst3k!]

McLovin, he looked very good in the 7th, 8th, and 9th.

7th: Line out by Choo.

Ground Out by Duncan

Ground Out by Brown

8th:

Flyout by LaPorta

Strikeout by Valbuena

Strikeout by Nix

9th:

Strikeout by Crowe

Ground Out by Brantley

Single by Cabrera

Flyout by Choo

K+G = 7

F+L = 3

Hit = 1

I'll take those results. I think the sixth he started to hit a wall, but clearly worked his way through.

[crowmst3k!]

His stuff looks like it's starting to rebound back to it's 2009 form. Last night his slider had the depth it had last year and that's a huge pitch for him. His command of late has been fantastic as well. A year out from the leg injury and eight months away from his shoulder woes, maybe it's just starting to come back?

Let's hope so because a healthy Bergesen who pitches like he did in 2009 and his last few starts is a guy this team needs.

I agree, Tony. Some of those sliders looked like they were hanging on a batting tee, only to drop out at the last second. That's a filthy pitch. One of the best sliders on the staff.

[LA2]

Well, he isn't Maddux, but he was sure throwing like him. Now if only Matusz can become our Glavine, and Arrieta our Smoltz.

Nooo! Because then we'd have to hire Mazzone back and I think we'd rather not . (What's Leo up to these days anyway?)

[McLovin]

McLovin, he looked very good in the 7th, 8th, and 9th.

That was one of the important things about last night, he got better as he got deeper in to the game. Most of his strike-outs came late in the game.

He looked much better as the game went on.

Fair enough, thanks!

[Mackus]

Can we get some of the people who laughed at the idea of Bergesen having the potential to be a dominant pitcher to now admit its not so far fetched? His last three starts have been phenomenal and he's pitching like a bona fide #1 (small sample size notwithstanding), just like he did at the end of last season.

He may not have a dominant pitch, but his exceptional control and ability to force opponents to put the ball in play early in the count, thus extending his ability to stay in the game have the potential to be elite traits. The lack of a truly dominant pitch doesn't mean he can't be a dominant pitcher.

Bergesen is a guy who can be very good when he is completely on his game. However, he's also a guy who pretty much has to be on his game to pitch well, otherwise he'll get rocked. You'll rarely hear a "he didn't have his best stuff but he still kept us in the game" comment about a Bergesen start.

I think his max ceiling is a 4.00-4.50 ERA guy who can eat innings. I just don't think its possible for anyone to be as mistake-free as Bergesen would need to be over an entire year to put up ERAs in the low 3's and be a true dominant type pitcher.

I really hope he can be another Jeremy Guthrie type, in production if not style. I think that's doable. But I don't think top of the rotation pitcher is really an attainable goal.

I do think he can mix in some absolutely dazzling starts like last night when he is on his game, but he just has such a slim margin for error that isn't sustainable at that level over an entire season, IMO.

[Juanvald]

I don't think think that would be a good idea to delete all those days. Then my son would only be two weeks old!! He was born July 30th, 2009. lol.

[QBsILLEST1]

What, no love for Tillman? And Britton already anointed? First things first. Let's ride this new Bergy the same as the old (09) Bergy...

Tillman I am beginning to doubt big time. Not saying I am writing him off in any which way, but I am no longer counting on him at this point to be a force in our rotation in the next year or so. The way things are shaping up, Bergy, Arrieta and Matusz are all set for true breakout seasons next year and are showing positive signs of this happening. Tillman OTOH, isn't, he is about to be passed up by Britton who was way way behind Tillman in development.....Britton I am very confident in. He is a GB pitcher, gets some K's and has a pretty high floor.....

I'm not sure I agree with the "he is what he is" comment. He is a very intelligent guy who will continue to do everything he can to improve his game. He's willing to work in different pitches like the 4 seamer that seems to have become a significant part of his game recently. He'll continue to evolve as pitcher as he gains experience and confidence. I think we're just seeing the beginnings of what he (and Matusz, Tillman and Arrieta for that matter) can do.

Berge's ceiling in terms of the quality of his pitches may be limited, but the quality of his pitch selection, his command, his understanding of opposing players, etc. can all improve significantly with time and should make him better in the future.

All the stuff he needs to improve upon is refinement as Arhtur Bryant says below this. When I said Bergy doesn't have any "real" development to do, this is what I mean. He is physically maxed out and his pitches pretty much are as good as they are gonna be. His command is great as well, but he needs to refine it and be more consistent with it.....

Actually, I think he has been developing since he came up, and he may not be done. No, he doesn't have any physical development left, but he has made some serious refinement to his game. Seems to me that he has even more sink on the two-seamer, the four-seamer has become a really effective complement to the two-seamer, and he has been flashing a wicked slider.

As I said in another thread, I thought last season that he was succeeding somewhat on smoke and mirrors. His command had to be perfect. But I haven't had that impression in his last three starts.

Players are never quite as good as they look when they're on a roll, and tonight was possibly his best game as a pro, so I don't want to go overboard. But he has been showing dimensions that I never expected to see from him.

EDIT: Just realized that I never answered the question in the OP, about whether I see him in the rotation in two years. Answer: I didn't last season, but I'm starting to come around to "yes."

I think we are on the same page here. Last year I was trying to reserve my judgement, but he is beginning to look like the real deal....His FB is IMO underrated. I saw him touch 93 in the 9th inning last night and I also recall him touching 94 in the 1st if I remember right......

I think it's funny that we are wondering 'if' we can count on Bergesen when he's blown Matusz, Tillman, and Arrieta away for their careers. He's produced the best results by far. Aside from the start of this year after he hurt himself (during a freaking commercial of all things) where he was clearly bothered by his shoulder, he's done nothing but get hitters out. It may not be flashy, but he gets the job done on a more consistent basis than any of our young pitchers. I think he's more than a #5. I'm not sure yet what any of the other young guys are.

With Bergy, his learning curve is different than with the other guys. Bergy as mentioned above is pretty much a fully baked product. The other guys are still trying to develop and refine major points of their game....I agree, he is more than a #5 SP. He will probably pitch out of the #5 slot in the end, but he will be a mid rotation starter in my eyes.....

[NewMarketSean]

It's been a long time since I have seen an Orioles pitcher get better -- MUCH better -- as the game went on. Usually guys like Bedard, Matusz and even Guthrie start off well, cruise, and then hit a rough patch before they are taken out of the game. Bergy got better, and BETTER as the game went on. It was so good to see.

[LOUDOUN_BIRD]

The question is, can we count on Bergy as a piece of the future rotation. WHen you look into your crystal ball, do you see Bergy holding down a rotation spot in 2 years for our team?

We are already counting on Matusz, Arrieta, Britton and for me Guthrie as well. Will Bergy be that 5th and final piece?

Personally, I am counting on him as a piece of the future. Why? Because his brand of baseball has been proven to be successful, the obstacle that he has to overcome is executing his brand of baseball. He is not like the rest of our young arms. He is what he is, he has no more real development to do IMO. His calling card is command, movement and tempo(working quickly). When he is in a groove, he is able to do all 3 well. Last year, he did all 3 well all year. In his last 3 games, he has also done all three things well.

So, the question is, who is the real Bergy? Is it this guy we saw all of 09 and in his last 3 games, or is it the Bergy we saw earlier this year that lead to a ridiculous ERA and if eligible, coming into this game, the most runners allowed per 9IP. It is basically difference between a mid rotation starter and a long reliever.......

I am hoping that he can continue to pitch well and prove that what we saw tonite is the pitcher we should expect and that his rough start was because of the shoulder injury just before the season. He will be our 5th starter in the rotation and if all goes well with him, he will be a mid rotation arm......

Good post - because it is a good question: Is Bergey a part of the rotation of the future (which has to be codified) or just another up/down like a yo-yo type. This is where I am going to rely on Buck somewhat - he has seen a lot of pitchers, what are his thougths. Does Buck feel he is a cornerstone?

[Mark Carver]

Hate to burst the bubbles, but...

Did he look better after the 6th? Because I watched though the 6th, and he was more lucky than good. He was getting line drives and fly balls - the sinker wasn't sinking. Through 6 about half his pitches were balls too.

Don't forget, this was the Indians.

He had 12 ground out to 10 fly outs.

[Hank Scorpio]

Two things I took from last night's start:

1. Threw both his two and four seamer. That'll cross you up at the plate.

2. Had a decent changeup and wasn't afraid to throw it.

[weams]

His TV-spot injury pretty much ruined the first half of this season for him, I think. A lot of his inconsistency can be laid there.

He is evolving -- he's a much better pitcher now than he was when he came up. I thought that he was living on the edge last year, even when he started going well. It seemed to me that he had to be almost perfect with the slider and two-seamer to be effective. But what I've seen these last three games appears to be repeatable. It doesn't look like a fluke to me.

Quite frankly, I think it was the more serious injury of the two.

Just not as ugly.

[Abadie]

Hate to burst the bubbles, but...

Did he look better after the 6th? Because I watched though the 6th, and he was more lucky than good. He was getting line drives and fly balls - the sinker wasn't sinking. Through 6 about half his pitches were balls too.

Don't forget, this was the Indians.

I was waiting for someone to mention this...lets wait until he finishes a couple 2-3 starts to really judge if he's turned the corner.