If you don't undestand that Buck likes Izzy at SS...

[waroriole]

Wait a minute. If anyone, not just me, are going to rely on a system to tell how valuable player's performance is, that person should be able to understand and explain how the system arrives at its evaluations. That is just common sense.

Right now I am just supposed to trust someone that I do not know, who might just be promoting something for money, or credibility or any on a dozen other reasons. So far I have no reason to trust many of the numbers that show up on Fangraphs. Especially when from time to time things do not ring true. Like the way they evaluated Markakis defense last year. I just did seem right to me.

Many times I dig into what is going on with these numbers the answer comes up that they are arrived at subjectively. How do you trust that when you don't even know who is developing them?

I'm just going to leave this alone, b/c it's clear that you're not interested in having a conversation about what to do with SS. You seem to be interested in promoting this absurd reality that since Izzy has been playing while the team is good, Izzy is good. Everyone has pointed out to you the fault in your logic and you continue to ignore them and repeat the same old tired line.

It's obvious who you are reminding me of, and should be to everyone.

[wildcard]

This is where people have a huge problem with your logic. That's terrible logic! Under that same logic, we should bring back Wigginton at 1B next year, and everyone knows that would be an absolute joke of a decision.

We are winning in spite of Izturis. Not in any way because of him. He's an above average defender but he's also the single worst hitter in the game. Get any of the other guys who can be an average or slightly above average defensive SS but who may just only be "below average" with the bat instead of "so bad it makes me wish I had AIDS because that would be less bad" with the bat, and we're a win or two better as a team without having to spend any additional money or give up any real talent. If you actually do spend some money or trade away some talent, you can get a guy who is average or slightly above with the glove and the bat, and then you are looking at 4 or 5 extra wins just by making one move.

I agree that the O's are winning inspite of Izturis offense. But you go too far IMO when he say he is not contributing to the team winning in any way. Izturis is an above average defensive SS. I feel sure that Buck would say that. I feel sure that Buck knows baseball.

Though many would like to reduce the game of baseball to completely numbers. In fact there is a lot more to the game then that. Izturis defense and what it does for the pitchers and teammates is not measurable in many ways.

I still say that other options should be looked at but I value the 6 starters and would not trade any of them for what I have seen so far. The pitching and defense is for the most part why the O's are winning.

[Frobby]

A completely logic and thoughtful response.

I would be much more convinced that the O's should try other marginal options if the team was not winning with Izturis at SS. That in itself speaks volumes.

I think we really have to ask ourselves whether we think the pitching staff is going to sustain what they've done over 41 games for 162 games next year. The staff has a 3.47 ERA since Buck arrived. While I'd love to think that they can roll along at that level next season, it is probably unrealistic to expect that. It's great that almost all of our starting pitchers have been on a roll the last 6 weeks, but that's not going to happen all the time.

In fact, I'll make a deal -- if someone can promise me the O's will have a 3.47 team ERA next year, I'll say we can keep Izzy.

More realistically, we'd do well to have a team ERA of 4.00 or below next year. And that means we are going to have to find a way to score at least 150 more runs next year than we scored this year. It's hard to do that while ignoring the glaring offensive hole we have at SS.

[wildcard]

Yep..These guys make sense..As does Zach Cozart from Cinci.

There are lots of guys out there that make a lot more sense than Izzy does.

The question about rookies is could they be a starting SS on a contending O's team next year. I feel sure that Buck will push to put together a contending team next year. Rookie starting SS usually don't fit with that goal. That is not to say that a rookie SS could not be the UIF or that have any of these guy in the O's system is not a good idea.

[Sports Guy]

The question about rookies is could they be a starting SS on a contending O's team next year. I feel sure that Buck will push to put together a contending team next year. Rookie starting SS usually don't fit with that goal. That is not to say that a rookie SS could not be the UIF or that have any of these guy in the O's system is not a good idea.

I don't even know what you are arguing anymore.

Are you arguing for what you think the Orioles will do? Or what the Orioles SHOULD do?

Do you want izturis to be our starting SS next year?

[Mackus]

I agree that the O's are winning inspite of Izturis offense. But you go too far IMO when he say he is not contributing to the team winning in any way. Izturis is an above average defensive SS. I feel sure that Buck would say that. I feel sure that Buck knows baseball.

Though many would like to reduce the game of baseball to completely numbers. In fact there is a lot more to the game then that. Izturis defense and what it does for the pitchers and teammates is not measurable in many ways.

I still say that other options should be looked at but I value the 6 starters and would not trade any of them for what I have seen so far. The pitching and defense is for the most part why the O's are winning.

All the rest of us are saying is that you don't have to package above average defense with a balsa-wood bat.

The concepts of a good defensive SS and an acceptable offensive SS are not mutually exclusive. Nor is it anywhere near difficult to find a guy that is better than Izturis. You can sacrifice a little defense to get a lot of offense. That's a smart decision. Also, Izzy's defense isn't really that great. I'd agree with above average, but I wouldn't agree with top shelf.

[wildcard]

He encourages Izturis to do those things because he's trying to salvage some positive out of his at bats. Buck is pretty notorious for not sac bunting very much, for not sealing much on the bases. He's very much like Weaver in that regard.

However, with Izturis, you aren't taking the bat out of the hands of a guy who is going to get on base. He's essentially treating him as if he is a pitcher, and he should. Izturis' OPS this year is pretty much right in between what an average pitcher hits like (~360 OPS) and what an average hitter hits like (~750 OPS). In fact, he may be a little bit closer to the pitching side of things, which is just as embarrassing as it should be.

He's not bunting with Izturis because he likes bunting. He's bunting with Izturis because Izturis hits like a pitcher, and you bunt with the pitcher whenever you can advance a runner without ending the inning.

I agree but the point that was being addressed is why are his numbers worse under Buck and the answer may be the way Buck uses him offensive.

[wildcard]

So then you are advocating, right now, for us to bring back Wiggy to start at first, Millwood for the rotation and Hendrickson for the pen, right?

You also want all coaches brought back, as well, right?

You said that I didn't. Izturis offers above average defense at a defensively important position which is helping the team win. And Izturis is in his prime likely to continue supply good defense.

Millwood is well past his prime and the young pitchers have progressed enough that his leadership is not need going forward. He hasn't pitched up to par this year anyway and there is no reason to believe he will be better next year.

Wiggy is not an above average offensive or defensive player. He is a stop gap player as a starter and a bench player if everything else was in place. I am not discounting the fact that he may be back next year to full in at 3b until Bell improves in the minors. Beltre would be a better option but he will be very hard to sign. Other options will come from trades and that could be expensive in the talent that the O's would have to give up.

All this you know because we have talk about it before.

[wildcard]

I'm just going to leave this alone, b/c it's clear that you're not interested in having a conversation about what to do with SS. You seem to be interested in promoting this absurd reality that since Izzy has been playing while the team is good, Izzy is good. Everyone has pointed out to you the fault in your logic and you continue to ignore them and repeat the same old tired line.

It's obvious who you are reminding me of, and should be to everyone.

I'd say you are not taking into account the openness I have expressed to Hardy and Barmes. Or any other option that does not cost starting pitching to acquire.

[wildcard]

I think we really have to ask ourselves whether we think the pitching staff is going to sustain what they've done over 41 games for 162 games next year. The staff has a 3.47 ERA since Buck arrived. While I'd love to think that they can roll along at that level next season, it is probably unrealistic to expect that. It's great that almost all of our starting pitchers have been on a roll the last 6 weeks, but that's not going to happen all the time.

In fact, I'll make a deal -- if someone can promise me the O's will have a 3.47 team ERA next year, I'll say we can keep Izzy.

More realistically, we'd do well to have a team ERA of 4.00 or below next year. And that means we are going to have to find a way to score at least 150 more runs next year than we scored this year. It's hard to do that while ignoring the glaring offensive hole we have at SS.

I am not sure that trying to get to 800 runs scored will be the O's approach. If they keep 7 starters with one them in the pen (Vandy) then there may be enough competition to keep them pitching at a high level. Whether that is 3.47 or not who knows.

I have faith in Buck getting all his players to play to their potential. He ready seem to know how to push the right buttons.

[wildcard]

I don't even know what you are arguing anymore.

Are you arguing for what you think the Orioles will do? Or what the Orioles SHOULD do?

Do you want izturis to be our starting SS next year?

I'd like a upgrade as long as the O's don't have to trade starting pitching to get one. Some of the players discussed are not upgrades IMO.

As I stated in the begin, I think Buck values Izzy defense. Where that leads the team, I am not sure.

[Mackus]

Some of the players discussed are not upgrades IMO.

I disagree with your opinion, then. I haven't seen a name that I don't think will be an upgrade over Izturis next season.

I definitely expect Izturis to be closer to his 2010 level than his 2008-2009 level. Maybe not quite as bad as 2010, but I am expecting another sub-.600 OPS year with the bat and a further decline with the glove closer to league average, and another negative WAR for him overall.

[Sports Guy]

I'd like a upgrade as long as the O's don't have to trade starting pitching to get one. Some of the players discussed are not upgrades IMO.

As I stated in the begin, I think Buck values Izzy defense. Where that leads the team, I am not sure.

First of all, I will go on record as saying I believe izzy is our starting SS next year.

But there is a difference between what I think the Orioles WILL do and what they SHOULD do.

So, i am asking you, what should the Orioles do in terms of SS? And if you think they should keep Izzy here, do you also think Millwood, Wiggy and Hendrickson should be kept(and kept in their current roles)..since they are all part of the "winning situation" as well?

[wildcard]

All the rest of us are saying is that you don't have to package above average defense with a balsa-wood bat.

The concepts of a good defensive SS and an acceptable offensive SS are not mutually exclusive. Nor is it anywhere near difficult to find a guy that is better than Izturis. You can sacrifice a little defense to get a lot of offense. That's a smart decision. Also, Izzy's defense isn't really that great. I'd agree with above average, but I wouldn't agree with top shelf.

I agree in general, but Frobby is really the only one to offer a list of SS alternatives and we went through them and discuss what the bring and there short comings. No one else has offered good alternative. I don't see the O's have a rookie starting SS next year.

The devil is in the specifics.

[wildcard]

I disagree with your opinion, then. I haven't seen a name that I don't think will be an upgrade over Izturis next season.

I definitely expect Izturis to be closer to his 2010 level than his 2008-2009 level. Maybe not quite as bad as 2010, but I am expecting another sub-.600 OPS year with the bat and a further decline with the glove closer to league average, and another negative WAR for him overall.

I agree. We disagree. I have to think Izturis will be close to his 2008-09 average. Many of the names on the list either will not be available or are poor alternative. There are a few that are worth exploring.