If you don't undestand that Buck likes Izzy at SS...

[TGO]

Do you want Miggi back at SS?

Nope. I know he's playing SS now but I don't consider him one. And FWIW I did say "almost anyone on the FA list."

[wildcard]

Nope. I know he's playing SS now but I don't consider him one. And FWIW I did say "almost anyone on the FA list."

I was just checking your defensive tolerance level.

I would put OCab and Renteria in the same category. What do you think?

[olehippi]

I think this thread is amazing....but typical of OH when it comes to armchair managing. None of the managers we've had were good enough for them. Mazzilli, Perlozzo, Trembley, Samuel were all bashed for numerous reasons, but the one that always stuck out was their lack of ML managing experience.

Then the gods finally bless us and we get Buck Showalter. His selection was almost unanimously praised, and he has (miraculously?) led the Orioles to a 26-15 record since his arrival.

But despite this, there are those who have begun questioning some of his in-game decisions (myself included), and others who question why, when and where he is using certain players; this despite the explanations Showalter freely offers when asked.

Now we have the Izturis factor, a SS who Showalter obviously sees as an asset to the team, and suddenly the armchair managers scream that Showalter doesn't have a clue; doesn't know what he is doing; and question his ability to judge players abilities.

Like I said.....amazing!!

This team will get better under MacPhail and Showalter. In fact, it already has.

[wildcard]

I don't really agree here. It just depends whether they are good defenders or not. Elvis Andrus certainly didn't hurt Texas last year. Troy Tulowitzki didn't hurt the Rockies when he arrived.

The adjustments on defense are far easier than those on offense. Major league fields are much better, and the 1B are better able to bail out the other infielders on bad throws.

Now, I do not totally discount what you say. You do get the problem of rookies trying to make spectacular plays and throwing the ball away.

But if we had a rookie who was worth breaking in, wouldn't next year be a good year to do it?

Tolu is a freak. Best of a generation.

Andrus is pretty special too but he made 22 errors his rookie year and the Rangers were not contending.

I think Buck will want to contend next year. I think he will want to put the players in place to take a run at it. So it would be the rare rookie that could hold down SS in a pennant race. I don't think the O's have one and I doubt they could trade for someone that special. I don't think Buck would want a rookie at SS next year.

[Mackus]

A SS who Showalter obviously sees as an asset to the team.

I completely 100% disagree with this thesis.

Buck knows Izturis is a detriment to the team. He's just being positive, and giving Izzy well-deserved credit when he makes some great plays like he did last night. I won't ever believe that Buck would even consider bringing Izturis back as our starting SS for a full season next year until the ink is dry on a new contract.

[wildcard]

I think this thread is amazing....but typical of OH when it comes to armchair managing. None of the managers we've had were good enough for them. Mazzilli, Perlozzo, Trembley, Samuel were all bashed for numerous reasons, but the one that always stuck out was their lack of ML managing experience.

Then the gods finally bless us and we get Buck Showalter. His selection was almost unanimously praised, and he has (miraculously?) led the Orioles to a 26-15 record since his arrival.

But despite this, there are those who have begun questioning some of his in-game decisions (myself included), and others who question why, when and where he is using certain players; this despite the explanations Showalter freely offers when asked.

Now we have the Izturis factor, a SS who Showalter obviously sees as an asset to the team, and suddenly the armchair managers scream that Showalter doesn't have a clue; doesn't know what he is doing; and question his ability to judge players abilities.

Like I said.....amazing!!

This team will get better under MacPhail and Showalter. In fact, it already has.

Excellent point, excellent post.

[bobmc]

I completely 100% disagree with this thesis.

Buck knows Izturis is a detriment to the team. He's just being positive, and giving Izzy well-deserved credit when he makes some great plays like he did last night. I won't ever believe that Buck would even consider bringing Izturis back as our starting SS for a full season next year until the ink is dry on a new contract.

JT is that you? Lesse now - Izzy is AM's choice and he is being pushed down Buck's throat. Buck says things in the press but we "cognoscenti" know (is that a repetition?) that he and AM will come to blows over this one - wait and see!

I'm with olehippi on this one FWIW (ahh I miss RS!) :hearts:

[Frobby]

But despite this, there are those who have begun questioning some of his in-game decisions (myself included), and others who question why, when and where he is using certain players; this despite the explanations Showalter freely offers when asked.

Now we have the Izturis factor, a SS who Showalter obviously sees as an asset to the team, and suddenly the armchair managers scream that Showalter doesn't have a clue; doesn't know what he is doing; and question his ability to judge players abilities.

Please show me all the posts where anyone has screamed that Showalter doesn't have a clue, or has questioned his ability to judge players. Also, what is your basis for saying Showalter sees him as an asset to the team? Because he complimented Izzy after a good game?

You are building strawmen here. Buck has done a great job so far, but it doesn't mean that he never makes a bad (or at least questionable) in-game decision, or that every judgment he forms about a player is correct. Nor does it mean that his public statements about how something a player did or does has helped the team mean that he thinks that player, overall, is an "asset."

I'd be far more inclined to trust Buck's judgment about a player than my own. But we won't know until the offseason (if then) what Buck's thinking about the relative merits of Izturis vs. other shortstops.

[TGO]

I was just checking your defensive tolerance level.

I would put OCab and Renteria in the same category. What do you think?

IMO they are better than Tejada defensively and pretty much always have been. Renteria has had some poor years and is generally up and down. Cabrera has been very good ever since getting off the turf in Montreal, except for last year. Even this year at 35 he's still at 8.9 UZR/150.

If I were actually making the decision obviously I would look into scouting reports and not just go off of this stuff.

[H0smash]

I think this thread is amazing....but typical of OH when it comes to armchair managing. None of the managers we've had were good enough for them. Mazzilli, Perlozzo, Trembley, Samuel were all bashed for numerous reasons, but the one that always stuck out was their lack of ML managing experience.

Then the gods finally bless us and we get Buck Showalter. His selection was almost unanimously praised, and he has (miraculously?) led the Orioles to a 26-15 record since his arrival.

But despite this, there are those who have begun questioning some of his in-game decisions (myself included), and others who question why, when and where he is using certain players; this despite the explanations Showalter freely offers when asked.

Now we have the Izturis factor, a SS who Showalter obviously sees as an asset to the team, and suddenly the armchair managers scream that Showalter doesn't have a clue; doesn't know what he is doing; and question his ability to judge players abilities.

Like I said.....amazing!!

This team will get better under MacPhail and Showalter. In fact, it already has.

Who in this thread has said that Showalter sees Izturis as an asset to the team? Maybe as an asset for this season, but I hope/think Showalter believes we can do better at SS next year and going forward. That's also what I gathered from reading this thread. People aren't mad at Showalter for playing Izturis this year, he doesn't have any better options, we also shouldn't be mad that he compliments Izturis as Showalter says he tries to stay positive. The only reason why I would get mad/second-guess Showalter and MacPhail is if they bring back Izturis to be the starting SS next year, which I really, really hope they don't.

[Mackus]

JT is that you? Lesse now - Izzy is AM's choice and he is being pushed down Buck's throat. Buck says things in the press but we "cognoscenti" know (is that a repetition?) that he and AM will come to blows over this one - wait and see!

I'm with olehippi on this one FWIW (ahh I miss RS!) :hearts:

No, I thnk Izturis is the best defensive SS on the team, none of the options are any good at offense, so Buck's going with Izturis because he's the best we've got right now. I don't believe for a second that Buck or MacPhail or anyone would like to have Izturis back next season. They know he's awful overall, but he is good defensively. He made some really nice plays last night, and that's what Buck was gushing about. It doesn't mean he wants him to be our SS for next season.

[Sports Guy]

I think this thread is amazing....but typical of OH when it comes to armchair managing. None of the managers we've had were good enough for them. Mazzilli, Perlozzo, Trembley, Samuel were all bashed for numerous reasons, but the one that always stuck out was their lack of ML managing experience.

Then the gods finally bless us and we get Buck Showalter. His selection was almost unanimously praised, and he has (miraculously?) led the Orioles to a 26-15 record since his arrival.

But despite this, there are those who have begun questioning some of his in-game decisions (myself included), and others who question why, when and where he is using certain players; this despite the explanations Showalter freely offers when asked.

Now we have the Izturis factor, a SS who Showalter obviously sees as an asset to the team, and suddenly the armchair managers scream that Showalter doesn't have a clue; doesn't know what he is doing; and question his ability to judge players abilities.

Like I said.....amazing!!

This team will get better under MacPhail and Showalter. In fact, it already has.

So, what you are saying is that Buck has always and will always make the right evaluation and decision, right?

You are saying he was right in wanting to deal AGon for Eaton, correct?

[Frobby]

Now I found a more full report of what Buck said last night:

Showalter raved about Cesar Izturis' defense and astute baserunning.

"Izzy put on a clinic tonight, just about in every phase you want to see," Showalter said. "He made three fundamental plays that go unnoticed that just jump out at you. He stopped there on the baserunning play. I can't tell you how many people run into that tag for a double play. Little thing like comebacker back to Bergy. A lot of shortstops will just find the bag. There's two guys moving. He doesn't know who to throw to. But Izzy throws his hands up right away. Takes the anxiety away from the pitcher, who he's throwing to. I can go on and on.

"Of course he made a couple nice plays glove side and backhand side. He's a baseball player and that's why people like him around. Bergy was the story tonight, but I've got to tell you Izzy is a close second."

http://www.masnsports.com/school_of_roch/2010/09/showalter-time-6.html

OK, that does sound like more of an endorsement of Izzy than the shorter quote I saw in the Sun.

Showalter always notices the little things, which is one of the reasons he's such a good manager. A few days ago he was raving about the secondary lead Nick Markakis had gotten off 1B, which allowed him to get a good jump on a ground ball to 2B and preventing the Jays from getting a force play at 2B. (Nick then scored on Scott's single, which also was a nice piece of baserunning, by the way.)

It is things like this that should help us realize that there are a lot of things not in the stat book that a good manager considers when evaluating a player. I still think Izzy's offense is a huge problem, however, and Buck won't ignore that when evaluating Izzy.

[bobmc]

No, I thnk Izturis is the best defensive SS on the team, none of the options are any good at offense, so Buck's going with Izturis because he's the best we've got right now. I don't believe for a second that Buck or MacPhail or anyone would like to have Izturis back next season. They know he's awful overall, but he is good defensively. He made some really nice plays last night, and that's what Buck was gushing about. It doesn't mean he wants him to be our SS for next season.

I hear ya and I tend to agree but I'm drinking the Buck Juice so if he really thinks Izzy should be our SS next season (against my inner desires), I'm biting the bullet.

So, what you are saying is that Buck has always and will always make the right evaluation and decision, right?

You are saying he was right in wanting to deal AGon for Eaton, correct?

I'm not olehippi but Buck and AM make mistakes obviously as do all of us, save you - I say with a wink - you do make mistakes right? What I would say is I will agree to disagree on that decision (Izzy) until he proves me wrong. I want Yunel!

[now]

But if we had a rookie who was worth breaking in, wouldn't next year be a good year to do it?

I would go for it. Chris Nelson - repairing old draft karma, among other assets...

Yes we might see the O's as contending next year; they are also not done rebuilding.

Bringing in a rookie, on the other hand, makes less sense if you look to Machado (or Givens) as the long-term solution at SS. I haven't seen that "problem" brought up here yet but it is relevant.