MacPhail Claims O's Had No Chance to Match Offer for VMart

[Sports Guy]

I think looking at VMart strictly as a 1B is simplistic. You have a guy who will give you 50 games behind the plate at a very high OPS for that position, as well as someone who will challenge Wieters to improve his hitting if he doesn't want to lose more playing time. You get clubhouse leadership. and the flexability to move to DH when you trade Scott and/or get a Fielder/AGonz for 1B next year. Plus you get better than league average production at 1B next year. None of the 1B options this year are ideal. They all have warts. VMart is one of the few who would have some value for more than 2 years. Personally I would prefer giving only one year to any of them, but that isn't realistic in most cases.

Zero chance he catches 50 games unless Wieters is hurt.

[El Gordo]

Zero chance he catches 50 games unless Wieters is hurt.

If Wieters bat continues to be less than impressive there's plenty of chances he would.

[SrMeowMeow]

If Wieters bat continues to be less than impressive there's plenty of chances he would.

No, zero chance. What are they gonna do, bench Wieters? He was a pretty decent player last season because of his catching and his defense. They're not moving him to a part-time role.

[Frobby]

No, zero chance. What are they gonna do, bench Wieters? He was a pretty decent player last season because of his catching and his defense. They're not moving him to a part-time role.

Wieters poses something of a dilemma, because on the one hand he's a superb defensive catcher and any replacement is going to be a downgrade, and on the other hand there is some evidence that he hits better when he gets more rest (including time at DH). It's tempting to have him catch 135 games to take full advantage of his defense, but you might get more bat out of him by catching him 110-115 games and having him DH another 35-40. VMart would have made the second option more palatable because he could have caught 40-50 games while also playing 1B or DH most of the time when Wieters was behind the dish. That is why he was so attractive, in addition to the fact that he crushes LHP.

[El Gordo]

No, zero chance. What are they gonna do, bench Wieters? He was a pretty decent player last season because of his catching and his defense. They're not moving him to a part-time role.

They don't have to bench him to give him less playing timed. catching 110 games instead of 120 isn't benching him.:rolleyestf:

[SrMeowMeow]

They don't have to bench him to give him less playing timed. catching 110 games instead of 120 isn't benching him.:rolleyestf:

What is he doing for the other 52 games, DHing? When you're so down on his bat?

[Frobby]

What is he doing for the other 52 games, DHing? When you're so down on his bat?

In Wieters' best offensive month as a pro (Sept. 2009), he played 7 of 29 games at DH. He also played every single game. So more days off behind the plate, but fewer days off from hitting, might be a good formula to try with Wieters. I hasten to add that this was just a small sample so who knows if that formula would help him over 162 games. But I do feel that he looked tired at times last season.

[RVAbird]

I think looking at VMart strictly as a 1B is simplistic. You have a guy who will give you 50 games behind the plate at a very high OPS for that position, as well as someone who will challenge Wieters to improve his hitting if he doesn't want to lose more playing time. You get clubhouse leadership. and the flexability to move to DH when you trade Scott and/or get a Fielder/AGonz for 1B next year. Plus you get better than league average production at 1B next year. None of the 1B options this year are ideal. They all have warts. VMart is one of the few who would have some value for more than 2 years. Personally I would prefer giving only one year to any of them, but that isn't realistic in most cases.

The whole defensive versatility thing is way overblown.

When VMart spells Wieters at catcher (which would probably be for 30-40 starts at most), who then plays first base? I'm guessing some replacement level guy on our roster or some replacement levelish guy we hire as a bat off the bench (Wigginton?). In either case, we have not gained much value if any when Martinez moves to catcher.

Maybe Wieters moves to DH and Scott plays first most of the time that VMart gets starts behind the plate? Well, the only thing we've changed in that scenario is that we've downgraded defensively at catcher and first base. No gain there, either.

And I think anyone is fooling himself if he thinks that us signing VMart would be enough to keep us from carrying a no-bat backup catcher on our roster. Neither MacPhail nor Showalter would be comfortable having our every day first baseman being our primary, and only, backup catcher. So there's very little chance we get added roster flexibility, either.

I'd be able to concede that having VMart be able to spell Wieters behind the plate could keep the big man a little more productive through the end of the season. It might even add a couple of runs if we have a capable backup at first base. But, all in all, it's not doing much.

I've posted several times that I don't expect there to be much difference in value between VMart and LaRoche over the next two years, while VMart has more strain on his body and would have required an expensive 4-year commitment.

Derrek Lee may be older, but he actually has more offensive upside, plays better defense, and would not require a long term contract. You're paying Lee for his age 35 production when he's 35. You'd be paying VMart for his age 32 production when he's 35.

VMart, bad news. No deal. Boo. Go Tigers.

[section18]

I haven't read all of the posts on the VMart subject so my next comment may have already been mentioned. Has anyone wondered if the Orioles may have been considering a Wieters trade to the Mets or Padres in a Wright or AGon deal and VMart would have been our starting catcher next year? I don't think Wieters is an untouchable on our roster like many seem to think. AM's comment that he is disappointed about losing VMart is not smart in my opinion. I don't think we ever had a shot at getting him because he wants to be a full time catcher. There are a lot of players available we can still obtain as free agents or by trade that will help Buck get us to the playoffs.

[RVAbird]

I haven't read all of the posts on the VMart subject so my next comment may have already been mentioned. Has anyone wondered if the Orioles may have been considering a Wieters trade to the Mets or Padres in a Wright or AGon deal and VMart would have been our starting catcher next year? I don't think Wieters is an untouchable on our roster like many seem to think. AM's comment that he is disappointed about losing VMart is not smart in my opinion. I don't think we ever had a shot at getting him because he wants to be a full time catcher. There are a lot of players available we can still obtain as free agents or by trade that will help Buck get us to the playoffs.

Detroit has Alex Avila, who will be ready to step in as the full-time catcher next year. Martinez won't likely get more of an opportunity to catch in Detroit than he would in Baltimore. Plus, he will see significant time as a DH in Detroit, whereas he would have gotten most of his starts at first base here.

And, no, I highly doubt a Wieters trade was being considered in the event that we acquired VMart. I don't think any team in baseball was or is interested in Martinez as a full-time catcher.

[El Gordo]

The whole defensive versatility thing is way overblown.

When VMart spells Wieters at catcher (which would probably be for 30-40 starts at most), who then plays first base? I'm guessing some replacement level guy on our roster or some replacement levelish guy we hire as a bat off the bench (Wigginton?). In either case, we have not gained much value if any when Martinez moves to catcher.

Maybe Wieters moves to DH and Scott plays first most of the time that VMart gets starts behind the plate? Well, the only thing we've changed in that scenario is that we've downgraded defensively at catcher and first base. No gain there, either.

And I think anyone is fooling himself if he thinks that us signing VMart would be enough to keep us from carrying a no-bat backup catcher on our roster. Neither MacPhail nor Showalter would be comfortable having our every day first baseman being our primary, and only, backup catcher. So there's very little chance we get added roster flexibility, either.

I'd be able to concede that having VMart be able to spell Wieters behind the plate could keep the big man a little more productive through the end of the season. It might even add a couple of runs if we have a capable backup at first base. But, all in all, it's not doing much.

I've posted several times that I don't expect there to be much difference in value between VMart and LaRoche over the next two years, while VMart has more strain on his body and would have required an expensive 4-year commitment.

Derrek Lee may be older, but he actually has more offensive upside, plays better defense, and would not require a long term contract. You're paying Lee for his age 35 production when he's 35. You'd be paying VMart for his age 32 production when he's 35.

VMart, bad news. No deal. Boo. Go Tigers.

Wieters/VMart at C, Scott/VMart1B, Scot/ Wieters/VMat DH>Wieters/Tatum at C, Scott/Wieters DH and LaRoche at 1B.

[RVAbird]

Wieters/VMart at C, Scott/VMart1B, Scot/ Wieters/VMat DH>Wieters/Tatum at C, Scott/Wieters DH and LaRoche at 1B.

Easy there. Clever way of putting it, but you can't have VMart in two places at once.

When you've got VMart at catcher and Scott DHing, who is playing first base? Wieters? That's a stretch. My answer: replacementish player.

When you've got VMart at catcher and Scott playing first, you lose a lot of defense. Also, who is DHing? Wieters? Okay, not bad, but he can't play every day.

I granted that there is a little value to VMart being able to slide around, but either way you've got a Tatum-like player on the bench and, with VMart playing catcher, you're either sacrificing some defense, offense, or both.

There's a little value to it, but not much.

[El Gordo]

Easy there. Clever way of putting it, but you can't have VMart in two places at once.

When you've got VMart at catcher and Scott DHing, who is playing first base? Wieters? That's a stretch. My answer: replacementish player.

When you've got VMart at catcher and Scott playing first, you lose a lot of defense. Also, who is DHing? Wieters? Okay, not bad, but he can't play every day.

I granted that there is a little value to VMart being able to slide around, but either way you've got a Tatum-like player on the bench and, with VMart playing catcher, you're either sacrificing some defense, offense, or both.

There's a little value to it, but not much.

You also have Fox and Reimold on the bench. VMart will play 1B most of the time and he is better than LaRoche. Wieters will catch most of the time and he is an excellent defensive C. Scott will DH most of the time. With Fox and Reimold you can easily mix and match the rest of the time. It's not rocket science.

[RVAbird]

You also have Fox and Reimold on the bench. VMart will play 1B most of the time and he is better than LaRoche. Wieters will catch most of the time and he is an excellent defensive C. Scott will DH most of the time. With Fox and Reimold you can easily mix and match the rest of the time. It's not rocket science.

So...Fox and Reimold. Fox is a replacement player.

Reimold posted a .700ish OPS across two levels last year. Obviously there is upside there, but he will likely not break camp with the club.

Again, a slight advantage in value, a slight advantage in having the flexibility to rest Wieters' knees a bit more. Not much to write home about.

[Sports Guy]

A healthy Matt Wieters is going to catch 130 games, give or take a few.

There is no way he is only catching 110 games or so.

You can sit there and put all the theories you want..But the one theory you are overlooking is the one that will happen..the realistic one.

Even the Sun, when talking about missing out on VMart, said the Orioles plan was to make him the everyday first baseman and occassionally catch.

Once every 3 games isn't occassionally.