Chris Tillman 87-89 MPH

[Snutchy]

When watching Chris Tillman pitch on Saturday against Tampa in his first 2011 start, it seemed to me that Tillman was not throwing with the velocity he once had shown.

http://www.masnsports.com/steve_melewski/2011/04/after-no-hit-outing-tillman-gets-another-turn.html

Tillman's first-inning fastball at times was in the high 80s and there didn't seem to be too many mid-90s heaters during that game.

The right-hander said if anyone wondered if he were pitching with less velocity now than he did at times at Triple-A, that might just be true.

"It might be, but I am more working on commanding the baseball now. That's more important," he said. "If I need it, it's there. You know. it's not that I don't have it anymore. But I'd rather be able to throw more strikes, be more efficient with my pitches and be able to work with all my pitches than just throw hard.

"In the minors, I could get by just throwing it by guys. But you can't do that here. I've learned that."

For sure, velocity is not everything and it can be overrated. If you get the results Tillman got versus Tampa - six innings of no-hit ball - who cares what the radar gun said?

[OFFNY]

Hey, WE OWED Tillman one. We got him off the hook today. He pitched 6 no-hit, shutout innings in his first start, only to get a no-decision. We owed him one.

[scOtt]

Shortsighted, in my opinion. Tillman does need to work on his stuff in the minors, but he does have two out pitches in his arsenal. The ability to set them up is his issue and, as young as he is, you have to believe he can work on it.

I agree the Minors isn't going to teach him anything (unless he ends up there for a while anyways...) but I don't see the out pitches. I assume you mean the 2 seam and the curve. I didn't see the 2 seam tonight or last time, and he CAN'T throw the curve for a strike. Hitters ignore it.

They could be out pitches, but they are no where near to actually BEING out pitches.

[jtschrei]

Yes, I agree. Tillman's stuff tonight is not good enough to consistently win on the ML level. Maybe he was going through some "dead arm" time. I could see a good hitting team absolutely tee-ing off on that garbage. If you're going to throw in the 80s, you better have command and it better be down. Tillman was around the belt all night and he throws way too many balls. Period.

[ccbird]

Tillman is the new Human Rain Delay once runners get on base. That first inning was brutal. Not to beat a dead horse, but I just don't see much of anything to like about Tillman. He doesn't have great stuff, he has suspect command, no out pitch or ability to end ABs quickly. I like that people want to stay positive and or be bullish on the kid but if you're reallistic about things you have to be concerned.

[scOtt]

Yes, I agree. Tillman's stuff tonight is not good enough to consistently win on the ML level. Maybe he was going through some "dead arm" time. I could see a good hitting team absolutely tee-ing off on that garbage. If you're going to throw in the 80s, you better have command and it better be down. Tillman was around the belt all night and he throws way too many balls. Period.

Tillman is the new Human Rain Delay once runners get on base. That first inning was brutal. Not to beat a dead horse, but I just don't see much of anything to like about Tillman. He doesn't have great stuff, he has suspect command, no out pitch or ability to end ABs quickly. I like that people want to stay positive and or be bullish on the kid but if your reallistic about things you have to be concerned.

Agree with both of you, and agree I don't mean to pile on Tillman. He's only 23 and I can see him getting MUCH better.

But he can't put anyone away. 2 strikes, he can't end the AB. 2 outs, he can't end the inning. His pace is slow, then slower and slower.

He can't drop that nasty curve for a strike. I've seen two spring starts and now two in the regular season. Hitters IGNORE his curve.

I haven't seen the 2-seamer.

His walks ARE down, thank God. But he now seems enamored with trying to strike guys out on high heat. He doesn't have the heat or the movement to do this.

He has stuff but no head.

He's still hanging on, after a slow start... he seems to get stronger, or meaner. He needs to be MEAN from pitch #1. Not pitch #30.

[hoosiers]

Ha ha. I liked what I saw from Tillman tonight for the most part. He was on the corners a good bit. I was disappointed with the walks - even though he appears ahead of last year. He needs a put-away pitch and I was hoping to see a nasty curve, but did not see too many of those. Tillman's a work in progress and I think he's getting better. Hopefully, he will find his command and then start to kick up the velo.

[section18]

Buck had some nice comments about Tillman after the game. He liked how he got them into the 5th after struggling in the first inning. He said I don't know if he would have done that last season. When he was finished with the reporters he said he's coming in next to talk to them and he said come on in Tilly. Buck has a way to make players feel relaxed and he said some things about Jones in his press conference that were good. They asked him about his bunting for a hit and stealing second and he mentioned some of his defensive plays. He said he wants to contribute and sometimes little things can make things happen for you and then he hit a game tying HR which was a key hit in the game. I wonder what Palmer could do with Tillman to make him sharper. He certainly helped Guthrie last season.

[brianod]

The lack of velocity is troubling. Ideally, you would want young guys to be able to get away with the inevitable mistakes with velocity. Arrietta is a good example of that.

[Emory Eagle]

It's troubling that he exhibits none of the hallmarks of a good fastball: 1) movement/sink; 2) velocity; 3) control. Without that, it is hard to see how he will ever get into a position to effectively set up his off-speed stuff.

Furthermore, he can't throw his curve ball for a strike and he leaves his fastball and change-up up high in the zone way too often.

The bad news is that this just isn't going to cut it in the Major Leagues. The good news, however, is that he's young, and control/imparting movement on pitches are skills that may be learned. Velocity, short of adjustments to pitching mechanics, is more of an intrinsic ability. Hopefully, he'll be able to get stronger and improve his mechanics such that he may add a few mph.*

*Caveat: these points are not based on any sort of empirical understanding, merely from personal experience and observation

[scOtt]

It's troubling that he exhibits none of the hallmarks of a good fastball: 1) movement/sink; 2) velocity; 3) control. Without that, it is hard to see how he will ever get into a position to effectively set up his off-speed stuff.

Furthermore, he can't throw his curve ball for a strike and he leaves his fastball and change-up up high in the zone way too often.

The bad news is that this just isn't going to cut it in the Major Leagues. The good news, however, is that he's young, and control/imparting movement on pitches are skills that may be learned. Velocity, short of adjustments to pitching mechanics, is more of an intrinsic ability. Hopefully, he'll be able to get stronger and improve his mechanics such that he may add a few mph.*

*Caveat: these points are not based on any sort of empirical understanding, merely from personal experience and observation

I hate to even admit it... on the 1% chance Chris might even read these boards..... his high fastballs and hanging changes have actually gottens guys out.

Go figure!

[Emory Eagle]

I hate to even admit it... on the 1% chance Chris might even read these boards..... his high fastballs and hanging changes have actually gottens guys out.

Go figure!

Hey, even Bruce Chen gets outs. It's hard to hit a baseball. It's harder if its thrown hard, with movement, and accuracy.

[Emory Eagle]

And, even on the very slight chance that Tillman reads these boards, he should take heed. If he conditions himself, works hard on his mechanics and control, and experiments with new grips/off-speed pitches, he has a chance to stay in this League for a long time. He's in a very privileged position and he should take advantage of it while he can.

[now]

I hate to even admit it... on the 1% chance Chris might even read these boards..... his high fastballs and hanging changes have actually gottens guys out.

Go figure!

That's the thing; it isn't pretty, but Tillman does seem to have a knack for getting it done, even when most of the experts around here are unimpressed. That first game, no hits in six innings, and most on here were critical instead of happy. Today, I admit, I was about to give up on him in the first (and I've been a loyal supporter of his), but again, he found a way to salvage a decent outing and keep his team in the game.

Seems to me everyone has their pet players or those they dislike, and they just stick with it regardless of results. I'm probably guilty of the same thing, being in Tillman's corner. I do find it rather odd how so many are enamored with Arrieta and down on Tillman when, as far as I can tell, what these two pitchers bring and what they get out of their chances end up pretty darn similar.

[ccbird]

That's the thing; it isn't pretty, but Tillman does seem to have a knack for getting it done, even when most of the experts around here are unimpressed. That first game, no hits in six innings, and most on here were critical instead of happy. Today, I admit, I was about to give up on him in the first (and I've been a loyal supporter of his), but again, he found a way to salvage a decent outing and keep his team in the game.

Seems to me everyone has their pet players or those they dislike, and they just stick with it regardless of results. I'm probably guilty of the same thing, being in Tillman's corner. I do find it rather odd how so many are enamored with Arrieta and down on Tillman when, as far as I can tell, what these two pitchers bring and what they get out of their chances end up pretty darn similar.

Define getting it done. I will say that he has done a pretty good job of pitching around trouble and avoiding the blowup outing in his brief career but that isn't exactly comforting.

I'm far from sold on Arrieta being more than a #4 but he's shown more than Tillman. His BABIP is right around league average .292 while Tillman's is below at .272. He's also gone deeper in games and has more Quality Starts(11) than Tillman (9) in 7 fewer starts. Plus, IMO his stuff is better and more effective vs ML hitters. Bottom line, I look at Arrieta and I see a guy that is going to stick in the Majors at the back of the rotation even if he doesn't get much better. Tillman is going to have to improve to have any chance of ML career.