This pretty much says it all about tonight

[Tony-OH]

To be honest, if he makes the change to the bullpen and it blows up, everyone blames him: "Chen was cruising! Itchy-finger Buck!" I don't envy his job. I think the last two losses were more on the lack of enough offense than anything else.

But, in any case, for whatever reason, this team gives away too many games. It is a better team than last year's, on paper and on the field, but the magic is not there.

Congratulations it only took you seven posts in to use that ridiculous logic that gets used every single time people question OBVIOUS, and I mean OBVIOUS mismanagement of the bullpen. He had a nice fresh bullpen with a newly acquired setup/closer who has been pretty darn good against lefties. If he wanted to start the inning Chen ok, but allowing him to face the tie run, a guy who homered off him earlier in the game, with a man on was just not smart.

Buck is a great manager, but every once in a while he reminds us why he was fired from three other clubs. This isn't a black and white issue that he doesn't allow the starters to go long enough or any of that garbage logic either, this is a simple fact that there was no good reason to have Chen face Hosmer in theFRom 101+ 8th inning at 106 pitches when he has a fresh 8-man bullpen ready to finish off the game. If the relievers blow it, it's on them not Buck.

From 101+ pitches, batters hit .368/.400/.605/1.005 off Chen. Hosmer had already homered off Chen and is hitting .333/.371/.472/.843 off lefties this year versus .267/.323/.422/.745. Francisco Rodriguez has held lefties to a .102/.185/.184/.369 this year.

It was a mind-boggling poor decision and doesn't take but a look at the numbers to know it's not second guessing or Monday-morning QBing to say this was a terrible decision by Buck.

I love Buck as manager, and give him all the credit in the world for turning this team around, but Lord almighty he occasionally does some head scratching things when it comes to bullpen management.

[DrungoHazewood]

How many threads have been made here about our starters not going long enough? Now the threads are they are going too long.

Yea, but I've learned to just file those threads in the "there will always be someone who thinks reality should conform to perceptions of 1950" file.

I didn't get to watch the end of last night's game, but it's a real head scratcher that you have a huge bullpen and you let your starter with a track record of being good for six innings or so lose the lead in the eighth inning.

[Tony-OH]

I don't have any players, do you? I think Buck knows HIS players better then you or I or anyone else here. He had less then 100 pitches going into the 8, had given up 5 hits and 1 run. He throw the same pitch to Hosmer he hit out the first time. Missed his spot, happens! I agree with the comments that if Buck had taken him out and someone else had given up the lead, there would be just as many if not more here asking why Buck took him out.

I'm sorry, but that is just nutty circular logic. This is almost the old, he's a professional so he knows more than you so shut up logic. Buck screwed up last night. He kept a pitcher on past the point he's been historically effective to face a hitter that not only had already hit a home run off him that game but who has historically hit left-handers better than right-handers this season. It's ok, Buck screwed up. You can be a fan of Buck and Buck as manager and admit when he made a poor decision. It didn't take the poor outcome to come to this conclusion. Had it worked, all it would have meant was that he took an unnecessary risk to prove what? What was he trying to prove by letting Chen face the tying run in the 8th inning at 106 pitches against the guy who homered off him already and who hits lefties well?

I just don't understand the people that can't accept when players and or manager make mistakes. It's ok. Everyone does. As I've said before, I respect the hell out of Buck and think he's a great manager overall, but that was a head-scratcher last night when all the circumstances are taken into consideration.

[BmoreMatt]

I am usually a Buck apologist in the "left him in too long" situations. I just can't get behind the decision this time. I think Chen deserved to get a shot at shutting down the 8th. It's gotta be a quick pull situation though. When you put a man on and then go up against the guy who hammered you earlier in the game.... that's a no brainer to me.

Oh well, time to move on and hopefully Buck uses that pen when he needs to, moving forward.

[Tony-OH]

"Fortunate" to escape the 7th? He allows a bloop hit to CF. He induces a ground ball right at Hardy, but hit just a liitle too slow to double up the speedy Lough. With one out, he induces a perfect DP ball right to Manny, who muffs it. So what does he do? Induces a second tailor made DP ball to Hardy. Inning over.

That was an awesome performance in the 7th and I have zero problem with Buck's decision to bring Chen out for the 8th or allowing him to pitch to Hosmer. It just didn't work out.

You are way too smart to really have that opinion. I love ya buddy, but please tell me you either weren't watching the game or don't know the whole story because there is no way anyone with intelligence about the game can really have that opinion. Perhaps starting the inning with Chen was ok and defensible, but allowing him to pitch to Hosmer at 106 pitches with a fresh 8-man bullpen is indefensible.

[DrungoHazewood]

Congratulations it only took you seven posts in to use that ridiculous logic that gets used every single time people question OBVIOUS, and I mean OBVIOUS mismanagement of the bullpen. He had a nice fresh bullpen with a newly acquired setup/closer who has been pretty darn good against lefties. If he wanted to start the inning Chen ok, but allowing him to face the tie run, a guy who homered off him earlier in the game, with a man on was just not smart.

Buck is a great manager, but every once in a while he reminds us why he was fired from three other clubs. This isn't a black and white issue that he doesn't allow the starters to go long enough or any of that garbage logic either, this is a simple fact that there was no good reason to have Chen face Hosmer in theFRom 101+ 8th inning at 106 pitches when he has a fresh 8-man bullpen ready to finish off the game. If the relievers blow it, it's on them not Buck.

From 101+ pitches, batters hit .368/.400/.605/1.005 off Chen. Hosmer had already homered off Chen and is hitting .333/.371/.472/.843 off lefties this year versus .267/.323/.422/.745. Francisco Rodriguez has held lefties to a .102/.185/.184/.369 this year.

It was a mind-boggling poor decision and doesn't take but a look at the numbers to know it's not second guessing or Monday-morning QBing to say this was a terrible decision by Buck.

I love Buck as manager, and give him all the credit in the world for turning this team around, but Lord almighty he occasionally does some head scratching things when it comes to bullpen management.

I've never seen a manager who doesn't do some strange things with regards to the bullpen, but this one is clearly on that list. I just don't get why you pick this time to go against all the numbers and take a risk. Starting in the 6th Chen's numbers start to rapidly fall apart, and the combination of 4th time through the order and pitching in the 8th... his expected OPSvs has to be "Miguel Cabrera" range against almost any hitter.

[DrungoHazewood]

That was an awesome performance in the 7th and I have zero problem with Buck's decision to bring Chen out for the 8th or allowing him to pitch to Hosmer. It just didn't work out.

Really? When in his entire MLB career he's basically never had any success going through the order a 4th time, or pitched well in the 8th inning or beyond? He rarely puts Buck in a position to even think about putting him back out there that late in the game, and when he does the results have been terrible.

[Roll Tide]

You are way too smart to really have that opinion. I love ya buddy, but please tell me you either weren't watching the game or don't know the whole story because there is no way anyone with intelligence about the game can really have that opinion. Perhaps starting the inning with Chen was ok and defensible, but allowing him to pitch to Hosmer at 106 pitches with a fresh 8-man bullpen is indefensible.

Once he allowed the first base runner he should've been pulled. If the score was 5-1 then okay...but in a tight game why chance it?

[Tony-OH]

I swear to God I feel like neg repping anyone who says they have no problem with how Buck managed that Hosmer situation last night (I'm not going to of course) . It does not compute how anyone who knows all of the facts could possibly think the Chen-Hosmer matchup was the best the Orioles could offer.

So what you people are saying is that in your mind, Wei-Yin Chen at 106-pitches was the best opportunity to get Hosmer out? If your life was on the line, are you seriously telling me that Chen was a better matchup than anyone in the 8-man bullpen?

Folks, you have to get past the fact that you like Buck and be able to admit when he screws up. I like and respect Buck as much as the next guy, but hunch managing in the 8th inning of a 3-1 game and going against all of the statistical evidence you have that says you should make a change is going to lose more ball games than it will win.

Using the bullpen correctly, especially when you have a fresh 8-man pen, is about matching up the best match-up. When your starting pitcher has historically done poorly after 100 pitches, he should not be facing the tying run at 106 pitches against a guy who had already homered off him and who hits well against left-handers. If you don't get this or want to go for the "Buck is always right" mode then I don't know what to tell you. I'm use to the pollyannas always supporting Buck and running off with the second guessing logic, but I see a smart guy or two on here spouting nonsense and it's bugging me to no end.

[Tony-OH]

Once he allowed the first base runner he should've been pulled. If the score was 5-1 then okay...but in a tight game why chance it?

Absolutely. If it was 5-1, go ahead and see if Chen can get through the inning if you are so inclined. At 3-1 it's indefensible accept for the most extreme Buck-apologists. I really don't understand why some people can't understand that you can like Buck, but find fault when he screws up.

It's like the O'day situation in the 9th. I could see both sides of pulling him or letting him go back out for the 9th. Either way is defensible and it just didn't work out. But the Chen-Hosmer matchup in this situation is completely and utterly indefensible. I don't dislike Buck for it, I just think he made a mistake that I hope he learned from.

[DrungoHazewood]

Once he allowed the first base runner he should've been pulled. If the score was 5-1 then okay...but in a tight game why chance it?

Think about it this way: From the sixth inning on Chen's OPSvs is well over .800, meaning that an average hitter becomes Adam Jones or Manny Machado, and a very good hitter becomes Chris Davis. And that's with the knowledge that Buck probably pulls Chen late in the game when a really good hitter is coming up, so those numbers understate the problem.

[waroriole]

We have 3 LH RP! I want to repeat that because I feel like Buck doesn't realize this. I know Chen is a lefty too, but he was also over 100 pitches, and had already given up a screaming HR to Hosmer.

With 8 people in the pen, he really shouldn't be facing Hosmer again. The bullpen was very fresh, and our best guys hadn't even pitched in the series.

[Frobby]

I swear to God I feel like neg repping anyone who says they have no problem with how Buck managed that Hosmer situation last night (I'm not going to of course) . It does not compute how anyone who knows all of the facts could possibly think the Chen-Hosmer matchup was the best the Orioles could offer.

So what you people are saying is that in your mind, Wei-Yin Chen at 106-pitches was the best opportunity to get Hosmer out? If your life was on the line, are you seriously telling me that Chen was a better matchup than anyone in the 8-man bullpen?

Folks, you have to get past the fact that you like Buck and be able to admit when he screws up. I like and respect Buck as much as the next guy, but hunch managing in the 8th inning of a 3-1 game and going against all of the statistical evidence you have that says you should make a change is going to lose more ball games than it will win.

Using the bullpen correctly, especially when you have a fresh 8-man pen, is about matching up the best match-up. When your starting pitcher has historically done poorly after 100 pitches, he should not be facing the tying run at 106 pitches against a guy who had already homered off him and who hits well against left-handers. If you don't get this or want to go for the "Buck is always right" mode then I don't know what to tell you. I'm use to the pollyannas always supporting Buck and running off with the second guessing logic, but I see a smart guy or two on here spouting nonsense and it's bugging me to no end.

I don't think Buck is always right, and if he had pulled Chen based on the factors and statistics you cited, I wouldn't have had a problem with it. But my bottom line is, Chen was pitching well, and I'm not going to crucify the manager for sticking with him. I would have felt differently if Chen had been showing major signs of faltering.

[Tony-OH]

I don't think Buck is always right, and if he had pulled Chen based on the factors and statistics you cited, I wouldn't have had a problem with it. But my bottom line is, Chen was pitching well, and I'm not going to crucify the manager for sticking with him. I would have felt differently if Chen had been showing major signs of faltering.

So you don't care about the matchups and statistics that tell you what the best matchups are late in game but rather just go on feel? How many hits does a pitcher have to give up before that "feeling" feels bad. What are the signs of faltering you were waiting for in a 3-1 game?

Those who wait for signs of faltering while ignoring the statistical evidence are doomed to watching that faltering evidence become game tying home runs in the 8th inning off their starter. I know you know this because I know you are a smart baseball guy.

[DrungoHazewood]

I don't think Buck is always right, and if he had pulled Chen based on the factors and statistics you cited, I wouldn't have had a problem with it. But my bottom line is, Chen was pitching well, and I'm not going to crucify the manager for sticking with him. I would have felt differently if Chen had been showing major signs of faltering.

The entirety of his major league career showed signs of him faltering in that situation. You can't make good decisions by putting emphasis on microsamples of recent information. You can't let "just got out of the seventh inning" trump "has always gotten hammered like Poland against the Wehrmacht late in the game".