Who says we don't have an ace?

[Br10n]

In the playoffs having an ace is nice but the game is 9 innings. I think we should be comparing the Os entire staff to that of the other playoff contenders. The Os pitching staff\defense has allowed the 3rd fewest runs in the AL and 8th fewest runs in baseball. Only Oakland and Seattle have given up fewer runs. You can look at all the fancy stats you want it still comes down to how many runs you give up and unearned runs count. The Os have done this while playing the hardest schedule in baseball (based on win %).

[Redskins Rick]

I hate to bring up 1996, but the Orioles had a true Ace.

He was brought into the 9th inning of the ALCS with the game on the line and his team barely holding a slim lead, since the bullpen had issues and the closer was tired. Anyway, he was gassed and the rest is history.

[Frobby]

Quality starts is fine. It tells you something. It's not meaningless. But I don't know why anyone would use it when most folks have 24/7/365 access to baseball-reference and Fangraphs and don't have to use arbitrary things like that.

It's like a lot of numbers that folks defend. They're fine if you're stuck somewhere that your only access to baseball knowledge is a small-town newspaper that just happens to list Quality Starts but almost nothing else. But otherwise, meh. I think I get a lot more out of a simple list of the pitcher's line scores, or if you want one number, his Game Score.

Also, the definition of "quality start" fit better when the league ERA was in the mid-4's. I'd bet that 6 IP, 3 ER gets you a loss more often than a win these days.

[Br10n]

The Phillies won the WS with Jamie Moyer...not with Doc and Lee.

[CA-ORIOLE]

I'm fine with it, too. You can't argue that the O's have one of the best defenses in MLB on the one hand, and then argue that it doesn't benefit the pitchers on the other hand. I just think our pitching is better than they are given credit for. And, I feel like almost every time an Oriole pitcher has a good season, his FIP is a half-run higher than his ERA. At the end of the day, I just want to see our pitchers keep runs off the board, no matter how they do it.

Bref/DRS is saying that the Orioles defense is saving almost 4/10 of a run (0.38) from Orioles starters ERA this year. That is pretty amazing. For all the crap about FIP and fWAR not being fair to Orioles pitchers, fWAR is actually favoring the Orioles pitchers by almost a full win over rWAR this year.

Tillman: 1.7 fWAR, 1.5 rWAR

Norris: 1.4 fWAR, 1.4 rWAR

Chen: 1.6 fWAR, 1.3 rWAR

Gausman: 1.3 fWAR, 1.0 rWAR

Gonzalez: 0.0 fWAR, 0.6 rWAR (FIP hates Gonzalez)

Ubaldo: 0.2 fWAR.-0.4 rWAR

Total 6.2 fWAR, 5.4 rWAR.

No WAR calculations but xFIP looks to be about 0.20 runs more favorable than FIP for the Orioles starters.

[Jagwar]

Was the gun last night on the fast side? I saw Tillman hit 96 late in the game.

[MrOrange82]

FWIW, when I think of an "ace," I think of a pitcher who could play for virtually any team in baseball and post similarly great numbers for each one (with the obvious, potential exception being wins and losses if he's playing for a truly awful team). Guys like Kershaw fit that bill. Tillman does not.

[Old#5fan]

FWIW, when I think of an "ace," I think of a pitcher who could play for virtually any team in baseball and post similarly great numbers for each one (with the obvious, potential exception being wins and losses if he's playing for a truly awful team). Guys like Kershaw fit that bill. Tillman does not.

Then you are too narrow in you way of thinking. Under your thougt process there would only be 2-3 aces at most, Kershaw, King Felix and possibly Max. What did you consider Mike Mussina? He was certainly the ace of the Orioles pitching staff while he was here, but as soon as he departed to the Yankees he became just a number 3 starter for them. So I think Tillman would qualify as the ace of the Orioles starters but not if he was pitching for Seattle or the Dodgers or Detroit, as their aces are better.

[MrOrange82]

Then you are too narrow in you way of thinking. Under your thougt process there would only be 2-3 aces at most, Kershaw, King Felix and possibly Max. What did you consider Mike Mussina? He was certainly the ace of the Orioles pitching staff while he was here, but as soon as he departed to the Yankees he became just a number 3 starter for them. So I think Tillman would qualify as the ace of the Orioles starters but not if he was pitching for Seattle or the Dodgers or Detroit, as their aces are better.

...what? Mussina pitched for the Yankees from age 32-39. He had three bad years at ages 35, 36, and 38. Other than that, he was good to very good each year. Regardless, he wasn't exactly giving his "prime" years to NY, so comparing those years to the performances (to this point) of a 26 year old Kershaw isn't exactly sensible. Unless you can predict the future and know, for a fact, that Kershaw's "silver years" will be far superior to Mussina's. Calling someone an "ace" doesn't mean that they are, and forever will be, deserving of that title (see Verlander, Justin).

Kershaw, King Felix, Scherzer, Sale, Wainwright, Strasburg, Greinke, Tanaka, Hamels, Bumgarner, Darvish...those are guys you could make arguments for in terms of "ace" status, and there are plenty of up-and-comers, too (e.g., Sonny Gray, Kluber, Garrett Richards, Chris Archer, Lance Lynn, etc.). Guys who, right now, you could pluck from their current teams and put elsewhere with the same expectations that they'd succeed. Tillman has been, and continues to be, a gigantic beneficiary of the O's defense. He's the O's best starter, but he's not a pitcher who'd be relatively assured of success wherever he might go.

[Redskins Rick]

Also, the definition of "quality start" fit better when the league ERA was in the mid-4's. I'd bet that 6 IP, 3 ER gets you a loss more often than a win these days.

I dont remember the term, but I believe Nolan Ryan was trying come up with another QS stat label, something like a extra quality start, something like 7+ innings and 2 runs.

[Redskins Rick]

Then you are too narrow in you way of thinking. Under your thougt process there would only be 2-3 aces at most, Kershaw, King Felix and possibly Max. What did you consider Mike Mussina? He was certainly the ace of the Orioles pitching staff while he was here, but as soon as he departed to the Yankees he became just a number 3 starter for them. So I think Tillman would qualify as the ace of the Orioles starters but not if he was pitching for Seattle or the Dodgers or Detroit, as their aces are better.

He wasn't as bad as you came when he was pitching for NY.

Your anti-Mussina bias is showing.

[Old#5fan]

...what? Mussina pitched for the Yankees from age 32-39. He had three bad years at ages 35, 36, and 38. Other than that, he was good to very good each year. Regardless, he wasn't exactly giving his "prime" years to NY, so comparing those years to the performances (to this point) of a 26 year old Kershaw isn't exactly sensible. Unless you can predict the future and know, for a fact, that Kershaw's "silver years" will be far superior to Mussina's. Calling someone an "ace" doesn't mean that they are, and forever will be, deserving of that title (see Verlander, Justin).

Kershaw, King Felix, Scherzer, Sale, Wainwright, Strasburg, Greinke, Tanaka, Hamels, Bumgarner, Darvish...those are guys you could make arguments for in terms of "ace" status, and there are plenty of up-and-comers, too (e.g., Sonny Gray, Kluber, Garrett Richards, Chris Archer, Lance Lynn, etc.). Guys who, right now, you could pluck from their current teams and put elsewhere with the same expectations that they'd succeed. Tillman has been, and continues to be, a gigantic beneficiary of the O's defense. He's the O's best starter, but he's not a pitcher who'd be relatively assured of success wherever he might go.

Again, Mike Mussina was an ace on the Orioles staff. He wasnt even a number two starter on the Yankees. That is BEYOND dispute. So ALL I am contending here it depends on the team and the other pitchers as to whether or not there is an actual ACE on the team (one that is so much better than the others). Does Detroit have an ace? If so who is it? Scherzer, Verlander, Price? SEE where I am going with this????

[MrOrange82]

Again, Mike Mussina was an ace on the Orioles staff. He wasnt even a number two starter on the Yankees. That is BEYOND dispute. So ALL I am contending here it depends on the team and the other pitchers as to whether or not there is an actual ACE on the team (one that is so much better than the others). Does Detroit have an ace? If so who is it? Scherzer, Verlander, Price? SEE where I am going with this????

Given the spectrum of available responses, and in light of your (willful?) ignorance of the effects of time and the potentially-fleeting nature of "ace" status, I will say only this: yes, Oldfan, as has often been the case, I "SEE where [you are] going with this." I just don't care.

[Old#5fan]

Given the spectrum of available responses, and in light of your (willful?) ignorance of the effects of time and the potentially-fleeting nature of "ace" status, I will say only this: yes, Oldfan, as has often been the case, I "SEE where [you are] going with this." I just don't care.

So you are another who will never consider the distant, slight, even remote possibility that your personal view on something could be incorrect, or at least subject to legitimate dispute? I get that. Please carry on......and have a nice day.

[OFFNY]

Again, Mike Mussina was an ace on the Orioles staff. He wasnt even a number two starter on the Yankees. That is BEYOND dispute. So ALL I am contending here it depends on the team and the other pitchers as to whether or not there is an actual ACE on the team (one that is so much better than the others). Does Detroit have an ace? If so who is it? Scherzer, Verlander, Price? SEE where I am going with this????

I'd have to go with Verlander, since he is having a career year.