Who says we don't have an ace?

[CA-ORIOLE]

Again, Mike Mussina was an ace on the Orioles staff. He wasnt even a number two starter on the Yankees. That is BEYOND dispute. So ALL I am contending here it depends on the team and the other pitchers as to whether or not there is an actual ACE on the team (one that is so much better than the others). Does Detroit have an ace? If so who is it? Scherzer, Verlander, Price? SEE where I am going with this????

This isn't really that hard. Many people consider ACE = Elite level pitcher. I think you could qualify both Sherzer and Price as that at this point. Verlander not so much these days, but he certainly was an ACE imo (and I think most others). So yes, it's possible to have 2 ACEs on one team. The Phillies had 3 for awhile imo.

Maybe you should join forces with calmunderfire in your ACE campaign. I think you two would make a great team.

[MrOrange82]

So you are another who will never consider the distant, slight, even remote possibility that your personal view on something could be incorrect, or at least subject to legitimate dispute? I get that. Please carry on......and have a nice day.

FWIW, when I think of an "ace"...

An opinion concerning what constitutes an "ace" is not the same thing as an opinion concerning whether the Earth does, or does not, orbit the sun. And I never argued that what it means to be an "ace" is immune to dispute. I implied, strongly, that your Mussina comparison is silly and meritless. Because it is. And then I gave you a much longer list of names to show that my definition of who is, or might be, an ace was significantly broader than your narrow, superficial reading indicated.

[Redskins Rick]

Again, Mike Mussina was an ace on the Orioles staff. He wasnt even a number two starter on the Yankees. That is BEYOND dispute. So ALL I am contending here it depends on the team and the other pitchers as to whether or not there is an actual ACE on the team (one that is so much better than the others). Does Detroit have an ace? If so who is it? Scherzer, Verlander, Price? SEE where I am going with this????

On whose authority is it beyond dispute?

As for Detroit, Verlander is rumor to not be used as a starter, since he hasn't been pitching effectively.

[25 Nuggets]

Just for the heck of it, here is my list of 16 "aces" for the 2014 season, being totally subjective:

Johnny Cueto

Yu Darvish

Zack Greinke

Felix Hernandez

Hishashi Iwakuma

Scott Kazmir

Clayton Kershaw

Corey Kluber

Jon Lester

David Price

Garret Richards

Tanner Roark

Chris Sale

Max Scherzer

Masahiro Tanaka

Adam Wainright

again, just for this season. Tillman would fall in the next group which I would call "TOR starter" along with guys like Anibal Sanchez, James Shields, Madison Bumgarner, etc.

[CA-ORIOLE]

Just for the heck of it, here is my list of 16 "aces" for the 2014 season, being totally subjective:

Johnny Cueto

Yu Darvish

Zack Greinke

Felix Hernandez

Hishashi Iwakuma

Scott Kazmir

Clayton Kershaw

Corey Kluber

Jon Lester

David Price

Garret Richards

Tanner Roark

Chris Sale

Max Scherzer

Masahiro Tanaka

Adam Wainright

again, just for this season.

That's a good list, but imo I would knock some guys off it because I'd basically want to quantify "ACE" has having a track record. A few guys on that list don't do that for me.

[25 Nuggets]

That's a good list, but imo I would knock some guys off it because I'd basically want to quantify "ACE" has having a track record. A few guys on that list don't do that for me.

Yeah; you could demote Kluber, Richards, Roark and Tanaka to "TOR starter" and that would leave you with a dirty dozen of "Aces".

[CA-ORIOLE]

Yeah; you could demote Kluber, Richards, Roark and Tanaka to "TOR starter" and that would leave you with a dirty dozen of "Aces".

That sounds about right.

Speaking of Raork. I don't see how he's doing it. His stuff looks just mediocre. Kluber and Richards however seem legit. Tanaka, I'm just not sure yet.

[Murray#1]

Again, Mike Mussina was an ace on the Orioles staff. He wasnt even a number two starter on the Yankees. That is BEYOND dispute. So ALL I am contending here it depends on the team and the other pitchers as to whether or not there is an actual ACE on the team (one that is so much better than the others). Does Detroit have an ace? If so who is it? Scherzer, Verlander, Price? SEE where I am going with this????

Mussina's first year in pinstripes was 2001 and he was the best pitcher in the American League that year. He even pitched better than his teammate and the guy that won the Cy Young that year. Mussina pitched more innings, started more games, more complete games, lower ERA, higher k/bb ratio, less hits, less walks etc... He was the ace of the league that year.

Mussina was also clearly the best pitcher the Yankees had in 2003 and 2008 and arguably, in fact I'd argue he was, the best pitcher for New York in 2006 as well.

So I guess it's not really beyond dispute because I just disputed it.

[Ruzious]

Yeah; you could demote Kluber, Richards, Roark and Tanaka to "TOR starter" and that would leave you with a dirty dozen of "Aces".

Fwiw, Roark might not even get a start in the postseason. He's the Nats 5th starter.

[primetime]

Why is it so hard to admit that a big part of that performance is defense? I'm ok with the idea that you put Tillman, Norris, Chen, and Gonzalez in front of, say, the 1988 Orioles defense their ERAs would all be a run higher.

This is why I don't understand the point of FIP. Defense matters, defense is and always will be tied to how well a pitcher does in some shape form or fashion.

FIP gives you another evaluation tool but at the same time, unless you're Satchel Paige in an exhibition game, your defense is going to have an impact on your performance.

Also on our defense, I know that defensive metrics tell us that Adam Jones and Nick Markakis are below average but does anybody that follows the Orioles and watches this team on a nightly basis really believe those guys are below average?

Nick isn't that fleet of foot anymore but I see him making plays all the time and preventing guys from taking the extra base. AJ covers a ton of ground and catches everything humanly possible. Put me in the category of having no idea what the defensive metrics are seeing regarding Nick and AJ.

[Redskins Rick]

This is why I don't understand the point of FIP. Defense matters, defense is and always will be tied to how well a pitcher does in some shape form or fashion.

FIP gives you another evaluation tool but at the same time, unless you're Satchel Paige in an exhibition game, your defense is going to have an impact on your performance.

Also on our defense, I know that defensive metrics tell us that Adam Jones and Nick Markakis are below average but does anybody that follows the Orioles and watches this team on a nightly basis really believe those guys are below average?

Nick isn't that fleet of foot anymore but I see him making plays all the time and preventing guys from taking the extra base. AJ covers a ton of ground and catches everything humanly possible. Put me in the category of having no idea what the defensive metrics are seeing regarding Nick and AJ.

It's been said that Palmer got into the HOF, because of the defense behind him, making him better than he was.

[Old#5fan]

This is why I don't understand the point of FIP. Defense matters, defense is and always will be tied to how well a pitcher does in some shape form or fashion.

FIP gives you another evaluation tool but at the same time, unless you're Satchel Paige in an exhibition game, your defense is going to have an impact on your performance.

Also on our defense, I know that defensive metrics tell us that Adam Jones and Nick Markakis are below average but does anybody that follows the Orioles and watches this team on a nightly basis really believe those guys are below average?

Nick isn't that fleet of foot anymore but I see him making plays all the time and preventing guys from taking the extra base. AJ covers a ton of ground and catches everything humanly possible. Put me in the category of having no idea what the defensive metrics are seeing regarding Nick and AJ.

They aren't seeing the actual plays that is for sure. Nick may be slow and doesn't get to many balls as someone faster like a David Lough, but I honestly cannot even recall the last time I saw him muff a ball that hit his glove and he rarely makes a throwing error.

[Babypowder]

This is why I don't understand the point of FIP. Defense matters, defense is and always will be tied to how well a pitcher does in some shape form or fashion.

FIP gives you another evaluation tool but at the same time, unless you're Satchel Paige in an exhibition game, your defense is going to have an impact on your performance.

Also on our defense, I know that defensive metrics tell us that Adam Jones and Nick Markakis are below average but does anybody that follows the Orioles and watches this team on a nightly basis really believe those guys are below average?

Nick isn't that fleet of foot anymore but I see him making plays all the time and preventing guys from taking the extra base. AJ covers a ton of ground and catches everything humanly possible. Put me in the category of having no idea what the defensive metrics are seeing regarding Nick and AJ.

\Raises hand

Jones doesn't always get great jumps or take great routes, and he isn't fast for a center fielder either. This adds up to not having a ton of range (again, for a CF), which is what the metrics say too.

Nick is just slow and doesn't get to a lot of balls that an average outfielder does.

[primetime]

\Raises hand

Jones doesn't always get great jumps or take great routes, and he isn't fast for a center fielder either. This adds up to not having a ton of range (again, for a CF), which is what the metrics say too.

Nick is just slow and doesn't get to a lot of balls that an average outfielder does.

I know Nick's range isn't what it used to be and people say this about him not getting to balls that "average" RF do. I'd love to see this "average" RF that's so much better than Markakis.

Sorry to be a bit obtuse on this matter.

[Old#5fan]

Mussina's first year in pinstripes was 2001 and he was the best pitcher in the American League that year. He even pitched better than his teammate and the guy that won the Cy Young that year. Mussina pitched more innings, started more games, more complete games, lower ERA, higher k/bb ratio, less hits, less walks etc... He was the ace of the league that year.

Mussina was also clearly the best pitcher the Yankees had in 2003 and 2008 and arguably, in fact I'd argue he was, the best pitcher for New York in 2006 as well.

So I guess it's not really beyond dispute because I just disputed it.

If he was the ace, what was Andy Petite on those teams? Also wasn't Mussina the third Yankee pitcher to start in the WS? Doesnt' sound like an ace to me.....