Buck: "part of developing pitching is having guys who can defend"

[Frobby]

I found this comment by Buck fascinating. He was talking about bringing in good defenders like Paul Janish instead of more offensive-minded players. He gave Mike Wright as an example of a guy who was trying to strike everyone out last year because his defense was bad, and having better success when he stopped trying to dial it up to max velocity. And then he said "part of developing pitchers is having guys who can defend."

I think that's a revolutionary statement that supports those of us who think FIP and xFIP are garbage. Buck WANTS his young pitchers to LEARN to trust the fielders before they even reach the majors. He believes that pitchers shouldn't be trying to strike everybody out. Get good fielders and teach your pitchers to USE THEM!

That approach hasn't been in fashion since Moneyball popularized Vorys von Cracken's theory, but Earl Weaver believed it, Buck believes it, and therefore I believe it. I spent my childhood watching that work for the Orioles, and it's working fir them now. Let people belittle our pitching staff because FIP or xFIP says their ERA's are propped up by the defense. The point is, they're being trained to let the defenders do their job, and they're doing it well. And Buck wants the younger guys to learn to do the same thing.

http://m.masn.mobi/school-of-roch/2015/02/showalter-on-wieters-janish-facility-improvements-and-more.html

[McNulty]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought FIP and the like was developed to find which pitchers were being hurt by their defense, not the other way around.

[El Gordo]

This is a great point which will go unnoticed, because the doctrinaire wont recognize it.

[33rdst]

Okay, so I started another thread not having seen this one. Mods can please feel free to remove my thread. Frobby's point about FIP was exactly what I was thinking when I read this article. The team can not afford to spend 210 million on the Scherzers or Zimmermans of the world. They know who they are in that regard. Therefore, to get the pitchers they have to feel confident in throwing strikes, they have to improve the defensive support behind them. This a great, team focused, philosophy that will help a small market team like ours consistently compete year in and year out.

The fundamental question that will remain for the O's is, how do we compete with teams with the financial resources we don't have. Knowing that we have people like Buck and DD who know that creating a winning team has many solutions is reassuring to me as fan and makes me proud of our organization. The throw the money at it option is not available to us but we have found other ways to beat those suckers.

[Frobby]

I think that's a revolutionary statement that supports those of us who think FIP and xFIP are garbage.

I was in a feisty mood last night so I want to back off this statement slightly. I don't think that FIP and xFIP are garbage. I just think they are given too much credence and attention by many people.

[BohKnowsBmore]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought FIP and the like was developed to find which pitchers were being hurt by their defense, not the other way around.

That may be, it's certainly been used the other way around, though.

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[33rdst]

I was in a feisty mood last night so I want to back off this statement slightly. I don't think that FIP and xFIP are garbage. I just think they are given too much credence and attention by many people.

I don't think they're garbage either. It's just that the O's can't afford what it cost for a pitcher that can consistently win independent of his defense. Our pitchers have to learn to depend on it and I'm fine with that.

[Beef Supreme]

I was in a feisty mood last night so I want to back off this statement slightly. I don't think that FIP and xFIP are garbage. I just think they are given too much credence and attention by many people.

This is exactly where strong defense comes in. FIP and xFIP are likely to be inflated for pitchers who know they can trust their defense. FIP overvalues Ks, while failing to value outs recorded by other means.

[DrungoHazewood]

I think that's a revolutionary statement that supports those of us who think FIP and xFIP are garbage.

Maybe you think it's revolutionary because you think FIP and xFIP are garbage. Of course it's better to develop pitchers when they have a support system around them that includes a great defense. There's a gigantic difference between benefiting from a strong defense and intentionally trying to pitch to contact. Yes, Chen and Norris and Tillman look better with a great defense behind them. But so would Kershaw and Felix.

[DrungoHazewood]

This is exactly where strong defense comes in. FIP and xFIP are likely to be inflated for pitchers who know they can trust their defense. FIP overvalues Ks, while failing to value outs recorded by other means.

Why do you think this? Couldn't you just as easily and truthfully say that ERA overvalues good defense, by assigning credit to pitchers for things that are largely out of their control?

[weams]

I was in a feisty mood last night so I want to back off this statement slightly. I don't think that FIP and xFIP are garbage. I just think they are given too much credence and attention by many people.

I agree with you.

[Number5]

Why do you think this? Couldn't you just as easily and truthfully say that ERA overvalues good defense, by assigning credit to pitchers for things that are largely out of their control?

No. Pitching to your defensive strengths is a skill. Yes, the Kershaws of the world are helped by a better defensive team behind them, but to a lesser degree. A strong defense, at learning to pitch to that strength, narrows the gap between the Kershaws and the Chens. Chen will never be Kershaw, but the way he pitches with the Orioles' defense behind him makes Chen a formidable pitcher. I agree with Buck on this.

[Number5]

No. Pitching to your defensive strengths is a skill. Yes, the Kershaws of the world are helped by a better defensive team behind them, but to a lesser degree. A strong defense, at learning to pitch to that strength, narrows the gap between the Kershaws and the Chens. Chen will never be Kershaw, but the way he pitches with the Orioles' defense behind him makes Chen a formidable pitcher. I agree with Buck on this.

Sorry, typo. Should read "and".

[Frobby]

Maybe you think it's revolutionary because you think FIP and xFIP are garbage. Of course it's better to develop pitchers when they have a support system around them that includes a great defense. There's a gigantic difference between benefiting from a strong defense and intentionally trying to pitch to contact. Yes, Chen and Norris and Tillman look better with a great defense behind them. But so would Kershaw and Felix.

As you've seen, I already backed off my "garbage" description. I think the larger point here is that pitchers who try to strike everybody out may lose movement and location at the expense of velocity, and may be too intent on trying to make the perfect borderline pitch rather than throwing a pitch that will put them ahead in the count and trusting that the defense will catch the ball if it's hit. There is a line between feeling like you have to strike everybody out and "pitching to contact," and effective pitchers learn where that line is. The quality of the defense, at the extreme ends, probably affects where you draw the line if you're a pitcher.

[Ohfan67]

I'm not a big fan of FIP and the like, BUT I thought it's main advantage is its predictive power (along with k/9, etc.)? I thought one of the main ideas was to give you an idea of how Chen et al. would perform on a team with an average defense or in a year where the pitcher was not lucky or unlucky in terms of balls being hit to defenders, etc. I know some of the bloggers and web sites use it to predict performance on the same team/same defense and that's what a lot of O's fans find irritating, but I don't think that's what it's really supposed to do. Is my interpretation of its utility on or off?