Dan could go from goat to hero in a hurry

[Roll Tide]

1 minute ago, MCO'sFan said:

Everyone keeps saying that Angelos vetoed the deal. Did I miss something? The last I read was that Houston had a deal in principle with an unidentified team and that it was "squashed at the top." It didn't identify that the team was the Orioles and it didn't identify what the "top meant." There was many people trying to link different tweets together to "prove" is was the Os and Angelos. Now we are stating that as fact. My question is legit. Is there a source that has unequivocally identified the Orioles as that team? If not then lets not state it as fact.

The LA Times had an article about how the Darvish deal came together and how they were informed 1 hour before the deadline that Britton wasn't available.

The Texans owner talked about believing they had a deal vetoed by an owner.

Roch said that Angelos vetoed trades over medicals or something

Weinman !(I believe) said Duquette had agreed to dèals that Angelos refused.

[Frobby]

13 minutes ago, Roll Tide said:

If the Orioles somehow manage to squeak into the final wildcard slot I don't see how it could be viewed a win. The chance of making the real goal which is to win the World Series isn't happening.

I'm going to disagree with this.    I watch baseball for 6-7 months to enjoy the whole season, not so I can enjoy 2 weeks in late October.   Last year's wild card race, which went down to the final day, was thrilling to me -- not just on that final day, but for months.    Did I think it was likely that if we made the wild card, we'd win the World Series?    No, but making the playoffs is a goal unto itself, and gave us at least a shot at getting further.    If we managed to snag a wild card berth this year after being 7.5 games out in July, I'd really enjoy that journey no matter what happened in the postseason.   

Now don't get me wrong -- winning the World Series is the ultimate goal.    But I'm not going to limit my enjoyment of a season where that goal isn't reached.    Every day the Orioles win is a good day, and I'd rather enjoy the Orioles being in a playoff race in September that goes down to the wire than watch other teams doing it.

[DirtyBird]

5 minutes ago, Roll Tide said:

Really Weams......The Os aren't winning the World Series with our starting pitching. They might get luck and squeak into the 2nd wildcard  and will be quickly eliminated. 

The second wildcard has done what was intended. It allows middling teams to believe they have a shot.

 

What's to say we would be getting World Series caliber pitching "prospects" in return for our proven MLB caliber players?

A sell-off is as much of a gamble as adding to the talent we have and trying to make a run.

[MCO'sFan]

9 minutes ago, Roll Tide said:

The LA Times had an article about how the Darvish deal came together and how they were informed 1 hour before the deadline that Britton wasn't available.

The Texans owner talked about believing they had a deal vetoed by an owner.

Roch said that Angelos vetoed trades over medicals or something

Weinman !(I believe) said Duquette had agreed to dèals that Angelos refused.

Thanks for the reply.

[scbalt52]

The unknown 'factor' my father and I were discussing the other day, was that if we don't sell it could motivate the players and the feeling that ownership believes in this team and that they're good enough. I like that aspect of it even though I didn't agree with the direction we went. We've looked good since the cubs series.

[Cumberbundy]

7 hours ago, Roy Firestone said:

Ive said it yesterday and Ill say it again. Dan did the right thing in acquiring Beckham...for RIGHT NOW.And right now is what we are facing...not 4 years down the road of "maybe this pitcher will be very good". We needed a ss option and this one was a good one.I also think Dan did the right thing in acquiring a decent, serviceable pitcher in Hellickson as a rental. So sue me.

What's the difference between Edwin & Hellickson? 

[Tony-OH]

2 hours ago, eddie83 said:

Any GM should be evaluated for the work they have done, good and bad. That said it floors me at times how much heat he gets. 

Being the GM of the Orioles is a hard job.

-The obvious is the owner. All the talk of the Astros trade that fell through just cements that even more.

-He can't take part in Latin America. Owner. 

-Buck Showalter. I love Buck but in this day and age he has more power than most managers.  

- Brady Anderson. Brady's unique job and his relationship with Angelos is another hurdle.  

-NYY and Boston. The resources those two teams have and both being in the same division.

I am sure other GM's have limitations placed upon them as well but Dan does not exactly have it easy.  

Very good post and it certainly highlights the challenges that Duquette faces. You can add in the fact that he has just one year left on his contract and I'm sure ownership has given him no indication one way or the other whether he will get another one. They just don't operate that way.

I'm not happy with the direction of the team and I really feel like they have to catch lightening in a bottle to be successful this year and next to compete for any kind of playoffs. I'd rather have a long term vision that includes a robust international scouting budget, better major and minor league scouting, and a clear vision of the future that includes sustained success with good young talent. 

Unfortunately, I don't think Duquette has much influence over how ownership wants to run things. I could be wrong, but when Brady Anderson works directly for Peter and does kind of what he wants, it tells me that Anderson may have the ear more than Duquette. 

Either way, as long as the Orioles basically ignore one significant pipeline of talent (International), sign over priced limited players (Davis, Trumbo) and resign aging players (Hardy, O'day) to big contracts, they are going to continue to be in this situation.

Sometimes I don't know how much influence Duquette actually has even over the signings as some indications were that Davis was signed by Angelos' order, not because Duquette wanted to drop that kind of coin on him.

In other words, I believe Duquette has his flaws, but he has an incredibly tough hand to try and make into a winner.

[Cumberbundy]

7 hours ago, Roy Firestone said:

Ive said it yesterday and Ill say it again. Dan did the right thing in acquiring Beckham...for RIGHT NOW.And right now is what we are facing...not 4 years down the road of "maybe this pitcher will be very good". We needed a ss option and this one was a good one.I also think Dan did the right thing in acquiring a decent, serviceable pitcher in Hellickson as a rental. So sue me.

Aside from Edwin & Hellickson being the exact same guy, Hardy is Beck. He's back soon. What did we gain in either move for this year?

[24fps]

2 hours ago, eddie83 said:

Any GM should be evaluated for the work they have done, good and bad. That said it floors me at times how much heat he gets. 

Being the GM of the Orioles is a hard job.

-The obvious is the owner. All the talk of the Astros trade that fell through just cements that even more.

-He can't take part in Latin America. Owner. 

-Buck Showalter. I love Buck but in this day and age he has more power than most managers.  

- Brady Anderson. Brady's unique job and his relationship with Angelos is another hurdle.  

-NYY and Boston. The resources those two teams have and both being in the same division.

I am sure other GM's have limitations placed upon them as well but Dan does not exactly have it easy.  

This is a great post and I'm not at all surprised that nobody has responded to it.  Life is so much more complicated when you have to factor in a bunch of messy details.  So much easier to point at someone and throw a tantrum. 

I wish I had more confidence in the starting pitching, a lot more, but now that the decisions have been made, regardless of who made them, I've got my fingers crossed for some exciting baseball from here on out. 

[Tony-OH]

22 minutes ago, Frobby said:

I'm going to disagree with this.    I watch baseball for 6-7 months to enjoy the whole season, not so I can enjoy 2 weeks in late October.   Last year's wild card race, which went down to the final day, was thrilling to me -- not just on that final day, but for months.    Did I think it was likely that if we made the wild card, we'd win the World Series?    No, but making the playoffs is a goal unto itself, and gave us at least a shot at getting further.    If we managed to snag a wild card berth this year after being 7.5 games out in July, I'd really enjoy that journey no matter what happened in the postseason.   

Now don't get me wrong -- winning the World Series is the ultimate goal.    But I'm not going to limit my enjoyment of a season where that goal isn't reached.    Every day the Orioles win is a good day, and I'd rather enjoy the Orioles being in a playoff race in September that goes down to the wire than watch other teams doing it.

Agreed. I'm against what the Orioles are doing with the team, but I'd much rather be wrong and see the Orioles in the playoffs than vice versa. I hope Beckam proves me wrong, and I hope our starting pitching continues to pitch like it has over the last week or so the rest of the season and the Orioles make an amazing run into the playoffs. I say that because I'm an Orioles fan and I'll always root for them to win.

The Orioles have two runs left in them with this core of players. In 2019 this team is going to look significantly different and I have my concerns there is no cohesive plan to build this team into a longterm winner.

Saying that, Hays, Mullens, and Mountcastle look like legitimate major league starting players and that's the first time I could see that about position players in a long time. I could see that trio being our outfield at some point if Mountcastle's arm doesn't let him make the transition to 3B which I'm seriously doubtful he will be able to do.

[Cumberbundy]

5 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

Very good post and it certainly highlights the challenges that Duquette faces. You can add in the fact that he has just one year left on his contract and I'm sure ownership has given him no indication one way or the other whether he will get another one. They just don't operate that way.

I'm not happy with the direction of the team and I really feel like they have to catch lightening in a bottle to be successful this year and next to compete for any kind of playoffs. I'd rather have a long term vision that includes a robust international scouting budget, better major and minor league scouting, and a clear vision of the future that includes sustained success with good young talent. 

Unfortunately, I don't think Duquette has much influence over how ownership wants to run things. I could be wrong, but when Brady Anderson works directly for Peter and does kind of what he wants, it tells me that Anderson may have the ear more than Duquette. 

Either way, as long as the Orioles basically ignore one significant pipeline of talent (International), sign over priced limited players (Davis, Trumbo) and resign aging players (Hardy, O'day) to big contracts, they are going to continue to be in this situation.

Sometimes I don't know how much influence Duquette actually has even over the signings as some indications were that Davis was signed by Angelos' order, not because Duquette wanted to drop that kind of coin on him.

In other words, I believe Duquette has his flaws, but he has an incredibly tough hand to try and make into a winner.

The fact that the top 8 prospects are all international signees is one of the more incredible things I've seen and Dan can't even compete there. So he had zero shot at getting us any of the top 8 prospects, that's a devastating blow to his ability to put together a competitive system. Meanwhile something like 5 of Washingtons top 8 prospects are international signees and our system isn't much behind theirs. Our mlb draft team has been impressive. 

[DirtyBird]

Just now, Cumberbundy said:

Aside from Edwin & Hellickson being the exact same guy, Hardy is Beck. He's back soon. What did we gain in either move for this year?

How are they the same guy? Hellickson has never had season w/ a WHIP higher than Jacksons career WHIP.

[Frobby]

3 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

Either way, as long as the Orioles basically ignore one significant pipeline of talent (International), sign over priced limited players (Davis, Trumbo) and resign aging players (Hardy, O'day) to big contracts, they are going to continue to be in this situation.

The Hardy move hasn't worked out well, but I'll defend it to my dying day.    It's not like Dan just re-signs aging veterans willly-nilly. He cut ties with Markakis and Cruz that same offseason.   With 20/20 hindsight, Dan should have kept Cruz and jettisoned Hardy, but I will go to my grave believing that Dan made the correct choice given the information he had at the time.   Hardy had been a 3+ WAR player for four straight seasons as an Oriole, and only needed to be a 2 WAR player for the next three to justify his contract.    The odds of him doing that at ages 32-34 were good, IMO.     But it didn't pan out that way.    Sometimes, that's how the cookie crumbles.    

[Cumberbundy]

1 minute ago, Tony-OH said:

Agreed. I'm against what the Orioles are doing with the team, but I'd much rather be wrong and see the Orioles in the playoffs than vice versa. I hope Beckam proves me wrong, and I hope our starting pitching continues to pitch like it has over the last week or so the rest of the season and the Orioles make an amazing run into the playoffs. I say that because I'm an Orioles fan and I'll always root for them to win.

The Orioles have two runs left in them with this core of players. In 2019 this team is going to look significantly different and I have my concerns there is no cohesive plan to build this team into a longterm winner.

Saying that, Hays, Mullens, and Mountcastle look like legitimate major league starting players and that's the first time I could see that about position players in a long time. I could see that trio being our outfield at some point if Mountcastle's arm doesn't let him make the transition to 3B which I'm seriously doubtful he will be able to do.

Santa & Sisco make it 5 guys on the farm that look legit. Add them to Mancini, Bundy, Schoop, Gaus & Manny. There is a ton of reason for excitement imo. I'll donate to keep the people who are doing our mlb draft work. 

[Cumberbundy]

2 minutes ago, DirtyBird said:

How are they the same guy? Hellickson has never had season w/ a WHIP higher than Jacksons career WHIP.

Watching them pitch. Edwin has had 3 dominant outings for Washington, he's been better for them than Hellickson has been all year. At best they're arms to eat innings. If we could get an old version of Hellickson I'd be happy, but going against him has made me a decent bit of money, he gets smashed, he can't miss bats. I'd rather have Edwin. He was throwing an easy 97/88 this weekend in a win over Colorado.