Is Omar Vizquel a HOFer?

[Hallas]

Nary a person in the HOF was voted in their due to their OPS. Nobody even heard of it much less viewed it at as the end all be all like some of these younger posters here see it. It just strikes me as hilariously funny when I see it, but what is even more laughable is when people get mad if you don't see it their way on it as being the holy grail of performance measurement. Nobody even paid any attention to it throughout most of the history of the game, yet now its all that. Just makes me laugh.

But they all had good OPS's and, with the exception of players like Bill Mazeroski, the vast majority of players in the Hall have excellent resumes that remain solid under the scrutiny of modern statistical analysis. I mean, it's obvious that the writers that voted in Babe Ruth didn't know about OPS, but, based on the tools available to them, he was an obvious HOFer.

The bottom line is that as time passes, it's inevitable that we will have new ways to evaluate data. The responsibility of the HOF is to get the best players in. As such, would be remiss not to use every tool we have available, in the name of "tradition."

[orayole]

I think that the people who don't vote him in either underrate defense or are letting the steroid era screw their perception of a good SS.

[RShack]

Ozzie is probably the greatest defensive SS of all-time, but he's a bit overrated because folks don't account for how bad he was offensively.

Luis also played in a different era and is probably one of the worst HOFers, at least among those that played fairly recently.

What? Both of these are goofy statements.

Everybody knew exactly what kind of hitter Ozzie was. It's not like it was some big secret and nobody noticed it but you.

And calling Luis Aparicio one of the worst HOF'ers is just more evidence that you like OPS more than you like baseball. The guy was ROY, a many-times AS, and while he never was MVP, he was 2nd in the voting one year, and showed up in the MVP voting 10 different years, which is just as many as Cal did. He also helped lead 2 teams to the WS. He was the prototype SS of his generation, honored and respected by his peers, just like Cal was for his generation. Calling Luis Aparicio unworthy reflects a lack of understanding on your part. Plus, it might start a war with Venezuela, and they've got oil, remember...

[mweb]

I think that the people who don't vote him in either underrate defense or are letting the steroid era screw their perception of a good SS.

Or we just don't think a guy who was never great should get into the HOF. And it's not just the steroid era that has changed the perception of a good SS, Cal, Trammel, and Larkin played a big role in that. Then guys who modeled their games after them came along and put up great numbers for a SS.

[Hallas]

Ozzie is probably the greatest defensive SS of all-time, but he's a bit overrated because folks don't account for how bad he was offensively.

Not going to address Luis but Ozzie saved so many runs on defense that it more than made up for his lack of offense. He had 4 solid MVP-level seasons, and his career WARP3 is 130, which makes him an above-average HOFer based on on-field contributions.

When you're a shortstop, an amazing glove can make up for a LOT.

[DrungoHazewood]

Totally disagree. Just because you think that way there are plenty other people who don't. You just love to make generalizations about a game that has stayed basically the same for a long time, albeit it with some variations that no doubt will come around full circle given time. One thing should never change and that is watering down the requirements to be enshrined in the HOF. It is not for the very good players it is for the best who ever played period.

You really have no idea of what you speak. Players who were worse than Omar Vizquel have been in the Hall of Fame since the early 1940s. If you really think the Hall of Fame is only the best of the best of the best you're not looking very hard.

Or, probably more likely, you have some really odd ideas of value.

If the HOF standards should never change and we locked in the standards of 1950 there would be approximately 1500 players in the Hall right now.

[DrungoHazewood]

What? Both of these are goofy statements.

Everybody knew exactly what kind of hitter Ozzie was. It's not like it was some big secret and nobody noticed it but you.

Yea, a pretty good one. Several years with OBPs over .370 in years where there weren't nearly as many runs scored as today. Combine that with perhaps the best shortstop defense ever and you have a great player.

And calling Luis Aparicio one of the worst HOF'ers is just more evidence that you like OPS more than you like baseball. The guy was ROY, a many-times AS, and while he never was MVP, he was 2nd in the voting one year, and showed up in the MVP voting 10 different years, which is just as many as Cal did. He also helped lead 2 teams to the WS. He was the prototype SS of his generation, honored and respected by his peers, just like Cal was for his generation. Calling Luis Aparicio unworthy reflects a lack of understanding on your part. Plus, it might start a war with Venezuela, and they've got oil, remember...

I know it's heresy to suggest an Oriole HOFer was overrated. But Luis Aparicio was certainly that. He was an excellent fielder. But his offense was terrible. He led off almost every game and never scored 100 runs. He was a terrible guy to have at the top of the order. He rarely led his own team in runs scored despite batting first. His OBP was execrable. He wasn't the offensive or defensive player that Ozzie was.

He's arguably a HOFer, but just that. By no means is he a clear cut guy, or a first-ballot kind of inductee. There have been probably 500, maybe 1000 players in major league history who contributed as much as Luis.

[TGO]

Vizquel is basically on the line for me, to the point where I won't be annoyed if he goes in and I won't be annoyed if he doesn't. It will be interesting to see if he gets punished for his offensive era or if he is exalted as some sort of pure, nostalgic figure in comparison to his steroid-injecting contemporaries (because everyone is guilty, as we all know ).

[Old#5fan]

What? Both of these are goofy statements.

Everybody knew exactly what kind of hitter Ozzie was. It's not like it was some big secret and nobody noticed it but you.

And calling Luis Aparicio one of the worst HOF'ers is just more evidence that you like OPS more than you like baseball. The guy was ROY, a many-times AS, and while he never was MVP, he was 2nd in the voting one year, and showed up in the MVP voting 10 different years, which is just as many as Cal did. He also helped lead 2 teams to the WS. He was the prototype SS of his generation, honored and respected by his peers, just like Cal was for his generation. Calling Luis Aparicio unworthy reflects a lack of understanding on your part. Plus, it might start a war with Venezuela, and they've got oil, remember...

He was also one heck of a base stealer. I will never forget the old chant at Memorial Stadium when he got on first: Go, Go, Go, GO! And he always did! Unlike a certain staffer here I know you also had the great pleasure of actually watching Looie in action. Had Drungo actually been around to see Aparicio, I am certain he would not spout statements that he doesn't belong in the HOF. He was one of the top five major league shortstops I have ever seen defensively and also one of the best base stealers I have ever seen. He was a superb bunter with blazing speed. His bat is underated by those who simply dwell on the magical OPS. He could hit. Its not all about numbers, if you watch a player you know he is outstanding. Luis Aparicio was outstanding.

[TGO]

He was also one heck of a base stealer. I will never forget the old chant at Memorial Stadium when he got on first: Go, Go, Go, GO! And he always did!

He was pretty good at stealing bases. I just looked it up, expecting him to have a poor % (I knew he had great totals), but he was actually pretty efficient.

I know you like AVG as a stat though, and he was only a .250-.260ish hitter even in his prime.

[Old#5fan]

He was pretty good at stealing bases. I just looked it up, expecting him to have a poor % (I knew he had great totals), but he was actually pretty efficient.

I know you like AVG as a stat though, and he was only a .250-.260ish hitter even in his prime.

Bach then 250-260 was arguably more like a 280-290 hitter nowadays. The mound was higher and pitchers dominated the game. The best one's had an ERA in the low 2's not upper 3's like in today's game.

[DrungoHazewood]

Bach then 250-260 was arguably more like a 280-290 hitter nowadays. The mound was higher and pitchers dominated the game. The best one's had an ERA in the low 2's not upper 3's like in today's game.

Over the course of his career Aparicio was about 180 runs worse than an average MLB player, and 51 runs better than an average MLB shortstop. That's spread over 18 years, so in an average season Luis was 10 runs worse than an average player on offense, and about three runs better than an average shortstop.

By comparison Ozzie Smith was 180 runs better than an average shortstop in fewer plate appearances.

Aparicio is tied for 84th in career runs created above an average shortstop during the course of his career. A bit behind Hubie Brooks and Bud Harrelson.

RCAP                           RCAP    1    Honus Wagner                926   2    Arky Vaughan                591   3    Barry Larkin                488   4    Alex Rodriguez              474   5    Joe Cronin                  425   6    Derek Jeter                 416   7    Cal Ripken                  400   8    Luke Appling                366   9    Alan Trammell               365   10   Ernie Banks                 324   11   Nomar Garciaparra           309   12   Jack Glasscock              297   13   Joe Sewell                  296   14   Robin Yount                 284   15   Bill Dahlen                 281   16   Lou Boudreau                274   17   George Davis                267   18   Hughie Jennings             264   19   Pee Wee Reese               247   20   Vern Stephens               215   21   Ed McKean                   212   22   Jim Fregosi                 211   23   Travis Jackson              193   24   Ozzie Smith                 182   25   Bobby Wallace               168   26   Dave Bancroft               157   27   Denis Menke                 156   28   Miguel Tejada               154   T29  Bert Campaneris             152   T29  Roy Smalley                 152   31   Eddie Joost                 147   32   Frank Fennelly              142   33   Maury Wills                 138   T34  Dave Concepcion             136   T34  Al Dark                     136   T36  Rafael Furcal               134   T36  Ray Chapman                 134   T38  Toby Harrah                 125   T38  Cecil Travis                125   T40  Tony Fernandez              122   T40  Jeff Blauser                122   42   John Valentin               119   43   Harvey Kuenn                118   T44  Solly Hemus                 113   T44  Jay Bell                    113   46   Edgar Renteria              107   47   Donie Bush                  106   T48  Rich Aurilia                105   T48  Johnny Pesky                105   T48  Rico Petrocelli             105   51   Glenn Wright                102   52   Jimmy Rollins               100   53   Kid Elberfeld                98   54   Candy Nelson                 93   T55  Carlos Guillen               89   T55  Chris Speier                 89   57   Topper Rigney                87   T58  Charlie Hollocher            85   T58  Sam Wise                     85   T60  Roger Peckinpaugh            80   T60  Dickie Thon                  80   T60  Woodie Held                  80   T60  Dick Bartell                 80   T64  Michael Young                79   T64  Monte Ward                   79   66   Oyster Burns                 78   67   Garry Templeton              73   T68  Gene Alley                   72   T68  Red Kress                    72   70   Art Fletcher                 70   71   Tom Burns                    69   72   Travis Fryman                68   73   Phil Rizzuto                 67   T74  Dick McAuliffe               66   T74  Rogers Hornsby               66   T74  Gil McDougald                66   77   Bud Harrelson                64   78   Bill Russell                 63   T79  Johnny Logan                 62   T79  Bill Keister                 62   81   Leo Cardenas                 58   82   Freddy Parent                57   83   Hubie Brooks                 56   T84  Freddie Patek                51   T84  Luis Aparicio                51   T84  John McGraw                  51   

Again, his defense pushes him into the discussion for the Hall, but please don't try to argue he was a good offensive player, even for his era.

[Old#5fan]

Over the course of his career Aparicio was about 180 runs worse than an average MLB player, and 51 runs better than an average MLB shortstop. That's spread over 18 years, so in an average season Luis was 10 runs worse than an average player on offense, and about three runs better than an average shortstop.

By comparison Ozzie Smith was 180 runs better than an average shortstop in fewer plate appearances.

Aparicio is tied for 84th in career runs created above an average shortstop during the course of his career. A bit behind Hubie Brooks and Bud Harrelson.

RCAP                           RCAP    1    Honus Wagner                926   2    Arky Vaughan                591   3    Barry Larkin                488   4    Alex Rodriguez              474   5    Joe Cronin                  425   6    Derek Jeter                 416   7    Cal Ripken                  400   8    Luke Appling                366   9    Alan Trammell               365   10   Ernie Banks                 324   11   Nomar Garciaparra           309   12   Jack Glasscock              297   13   Joe Sewell                  296   14   Robin Yount                 284   15   Bill Dahlen                 281   16   Lou Boudreau                274   17   George Davis                267   18   Hughie Jennings             264   19   Pee Wee Reese               247   20   Vern Stephens               215   21   Ed McKean                   212   22   Jim Fregosi                 211   23   Travis Jackson              193   24   Ozzie Smith                 182   25   Bobby Wallace               168   26   Dave Bancroft               157   27   Denis Menke                 156   28   Miguel Tejada               154   T29  Bert Campaneris             152   T29  Roy Smalley                 152   31   Eddie Joost                 147   32   Frank Fennelly              142   33   Maury Wills                 138   T34  Dave Concepcion             136   T34  Al Dark                     136   T36  Rafael Furcal               134   T36  Ray Chapman                 134   T38  Toby Harrah                 125   T38  Cecil Travis                125   T40  Tony Fernandez              122   T40  Jeff Blauser                122   42   John Valentin               119   43   Harvey Kuenn                118   T44  Solly Hemus                 113   T44  Jay Bell                    113   46   Edgar Renteria              107   47   Donie Bush                  106   T48  Rich Aurilia                105   T48  Johnny Pesky                105   T48  Rico Petrocelli             105   51   Glenn Wright                102   52   Jimmy Rollins               100   53   Kid Elberfeld                98   54   Candy Nelson                 93   T55  Carlos Guillen               89   T55  Chris Speier                 89   57   Topper Rigney                87   T58  Charlie Hollocher            85   T58  Sam Wise                     85   T60  Roger Peckinpaugh            80   T60  Dickie Thon                  80   T60  Woodie Held                  80   T60  Dick Bartell                 80   T64  Michael Young                79   T64  Monte Ward                   79   66   Oyster Burns                 78   67   Garry Templeton              73   T68  Gene Alley                   72   T68  Red Kress                    72   70   Art Fletcher                 70   71   Tom Burns                    69   72   Travis Fryman                68   73   Phil Rizzuto                 67   T74  Dick McAuliffe               66   T74  Rogers Hornsby               66   T74  Gil McDougald                66   77   Bud Harrelson                64   78   Bill Russell                 63   T79  Johnny Logan                 62   T79  Bill Keister                 62   81   Leo Cardenas                 58   82   Freddy Parent                57   83   Hubie Brooks                 56   T84  Freddie Patek                51   T84  Luis Aparicio                51   T84  John McGraw                  51   

Again, his defense pushes him into the discussion for the Hall, but please don't try to argue he was a good offensive player, even for his era.

Um, correct me if I am wrong but is't being great at stealing bases and bunting also part of being a good offensive player? You seem to totally discount that and probably because you never saw Aparicio and the element of the game in which he was among the best of his era. I mean when he came up to the plate, ... immediately the defense was placed on high alert. The third baseman and first baseman played in for the bunt always. If he got on base, the pressure on the defense was simply palpable. It was almost as much as when Maury Wills got on base (Maury was the greatest base stealer I have ever seen). It simply is beyond measure how much of a distraction Looie was to the opposing pitcher and how much value his being on base added to the hitters behind him. His impact was far more than you suggest by merely showing numbers in comparison. Again, you totally have no idea because you weren't there to see it first hand. You simply don't know and its not your fault. I mean when say Rico Petrocelli got on base, nobody cared as he wasn't fast. Aparicio was like blazed lightening. He affected the defense amazingly. I know you saw Ricky Henderson. Imagine Aparicio as his era's Henderson when he got on base, although he wasn't the equal of Maury Wills, he was second to him in my estimation and HOF worthy.

[TGO]

Runs Created accounts for steals.

[DrungoHazewood]

Um, correct me if I am wrong but is't being great at stealing bases and bunting also part of being a good offensive player? You seem to totally discount that and probably because you never saw Aparicio and the element of the game in which he was among the best of his era. I mean when he came up to the plate, immediately the defense was on high alert. The third baseman and first baseman played in for the bunt. If he got on the pressure on the defense was palpable. It was almost as much as when Maury Wills got on base (Maury was the greatest base stealer I have ever seen). It simply is beyond measure how much of a distraction Looie was to the opposing pitcher and how much value added to the hitters behind him. His impact was far more than you suggest by merely showing numbers. Again, you totally have no idea because you weren't there to see it first hand. You simply don't know.

What TGO said. His stealing bases and bunting are already accounted for in the numbers I posted. Without credit for his base stealing Aparicio would be about 50 runs worse than an average shortstop for his era.

Don't be so quick to eviscerate numbers you know nothing about.

It's strange that your prior posts seem to indicate that you're a tiny HOF advocate - that only the very, very, very best of all time should be in Cooperstown. But now you're strongly advocating the credentials of someone who quite clearly doesn't fit that mold.

Edit: one other thing. Aparicio was his era's Rickey Henderson like Manute Bol was his era's Wilt Chamberlin. Or like Dick Stuart was the 1960s version of Albert Pujols. In other words, only in the most superficial way. Henderson scored 100 runs in a season more times his first full year in the majors than Aparicio did in his whole 18 year career. Henderson reached based nearly 2000 times more than Aparicio.