The Astros and Red Sox Punishments

[weams]

1 minute ago, Philip said:

But Dan was in line for a promotion in Toronto, wasn’t he? And yet we know what happened there.

No. He was at the highest level that the Baltimore team possessed. Anything higher was ownership.

[Philip]

14 minutes ago, LookinUp said:

These contracts all have exit clauses for promotions. All the Astros would have to do is request permission to interview him. The O's wouldn't, and likely couldn't, say no. It would up end the entire hiring process in sports.

Seems an academic point though since it appears the Astros are hiring /promoting someone else.

All right, that’s clear, but if that’s true, then why was there such a flap over Dan going to Toronto? He was in line for a promotion, so if the situations were similar there shouldn’t have been any problem. I guess I’m unclear what’s missing between the two situations. You’re right, it’s moot, because the Houston people are promoting from within, but I’d still be happy to get some clarity.

[Philip]

Just now, weams said:

No. He was at the highest level that the Baltimore team possessed. Anything higher was ownership.

Yes, that’s what I said, he was in line for a promotion if he were to go to Toronto, and therefore blah blah blah....

[SteveA]

12 minutes ago, atomic said:

Other teams are doing it is not an excuse.  Baseball will stop with these two teams unless anyone does something going forward.  If I rob a bank mentioning to the judge that other people robbed banks and got away with it is not going to help my cause either before or after receiving punishment.

The problem is baseball has a LONG LONG history of winking and smiling at violations of various rules.

Illegal substances rubbed on balls by pitchers?   Get away with it as long as you can, then it's oops, you caught me.  

Gaylord Perry's spitter was an open secret.

The entire steroid era.   Amphetamines.

"Regular" stealing signs by the runner on 2nd or by a guy in the outfield with binocs?   Sure, wink wink.

Everybody knows that when Earl Weaver was kicked out of a game he was still managing from a room in the bowels of the stadium, relaying instructions via a clubhouse attendant.   Everyone got a good laugh when Bobby Valentine was spotted in the runway with a funny nose and glasses after being ejected.

Didn't a relief pitcher climb through a ceiling to retrieve Albert Belle's corked bat before it could be used as evidence?   Fun story, everyone laughs.   Those ballplayers are such characters.  

You have to draw a line somewhere and that's what MLB is doing, before improved technology gets even more out of hand.   Wearable devices much smaller than a watch, etc.

But it was inevitable that as long as baseball consistently took a lax, almost humorous attitude towards cheating, considering players like Gaylord Perry to be amusing parts of the game's lore, and celebrating what Earl did, that some team(s) were going to push the envelope too far, especially with advances in technology.

If I were the Astros and had knowledge of 10 other teams that had some type of system, maybe not as blatant but along those lines, I'd sure as heck let the investigators know just so they would have some context when it came time to punishing.   This isn't a situation where most teams were totally clean and followed every rule and suddenly out of the blue 2 teams did something totally egregious.   This is a sport where for decades the prevailing attitude has been to cheat if you can get away with it, try not to get caught, and if you do, you might face a brief suspension.   There's no doubt that every team trying to win was going to come right up to the line of what they thought they could get away with without being caught.   And in fact that's what happenened until Mike FIers spoke out.  

[LookinUp]

3 minutes ago, Philip said:

All right, that’s clear, but if that’s true, then why was there such a flap over Dan going to Toronto? He was in line for a promotion, so if the situations were similar there shouldn’t have been any problem. I guess I’m unclear what’s missing between the two situations. You’re right, it’s moot, because the Houston people are promoting from within, but I’d still be happy to get some clarity.

Someone here probably knows better than me, but I think (and this is true across sports) that making a distinction without a real difference is the issue. Toronto was going to ask him to do a very similar job, though with more stated authority. That's why the O's would have filed a grievance, etc.

[Can_of_corn]

12 minutes ago, weams said:

With technology? Wow. 

With those new fangled center field cameras.

I also vaguely recall a story of electronic signals being sent to the third base coach in the 19th century.

[Can_of_corn]

10 minutes ago, Philip said:

All right, that’s clear, but if that’s true, then why was there such a flap over Dan going to Toronto? He was in line for a promotion, so if the situations were similar there shouldn’t have been any problem. I guess I’m unclear what’s missing between the two situations. You’re right, it’s moot, because the Houston people are promoting from within, but I’d still be happy to get some clarity.

They talked to him without permission.

[weams]

1 minute ago, Can_of_corn said:

With those new fangled center field cameras.

I also vaguely recall a story of electronic signals being sent to the third base coach in the 19th century.

Well you and Dungo have got me there. Thanks. 

[weams]

2 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

They talked to him without permission.

And  Dan was the EVP and there was not a filled presidency. They could have easily given Dan that title and made him go sit in Frank Robinson's old office in teh warehouse for two seasons. Or Flanny's.

[Can_of_corn]

Just now, weams said:

And  Dan was the EVP and there was not a filled presidency. They could have easily given Dan that title and made him go sit in Frank Robinson's old office in teh warehouse for two seasons. Or Flanny's.

Angelos doesn't use his.

[weams]

1 minute ago, Can_of_corn said:

Angelos doesn't use his.

I think it may just be that same room. Made over twice.

[SteveA]

So we are going to have two managerial openings on contending teams less than a month before spring training.   Think Buck will get a look from either team?

[Can_of_corn]

Just now, SteveA said:

So we are going to have two managerial openings on contending teams less than a month before spring training.   Think Buck will get a look from either team?

No.

[Can_of_corn]

Here is a hypothetical Buck.

Do or die playoff game on the road, extra innings.  You can throw either the reliever having literally the best season ever had by a reliever or an up and down starting pitcher who hasn't been able to hold onto a spot in your rotation.

Who do you pitch?

[interloper]

1 hour ago, wildbillhiccup said:

The reality is that the end of the baseball careers for those men will have a very minimal impact on the franchise. It needed to be harsher for the franchise (not the individuals). 

The loss of those picks is enormously damaging to the health of a franchise.