Hyde can’t manage this team

[OsFanSinceThe80s]

Elias just gave the dreaded vote of confidence to the coaches, players and staff. 

 

[Sports Guy]

16 minutes ago, Philip said:

I have a beloved friend who is a wild eyed liberal. I’m pretty conservative. I hate fruitless debate and he loves it. He was best man at my wedding and we would happily die for each other but we don’t talk politics. Actually he talks politics and I smile and nod.

Every single time I see Hyde do something stupid in a game I mention it. Everything I mention as being foolish is arguably foolish. I’m not making stuff up because Hyde kicked my dog.

it’s obvious you disagree and that’s just fine. But I’m not creating fact out of fog, so why not just move along.

I think you believe what you say..I just think you are wrong in what you are saying...or you are overblowing it...or you aren’t qualified to make the statement...or it’s something he did wrong but it’s “a mistake” that made sense at the time.

Not that he is infallible..no manager is but you are completely over the top in your thoughts on this (you aren’t the only one).

But hey, at least you aren’t a liberal, which basically means you are forgiven for the rest of this stuff.  

[SteveA]

42 minutes ago, Philip said:

I have a beloved friend who is a wild eyed liberal. I’m pretty conservative. I hate fruitless debate and he loves it. He was best man at my wedding and we would happily die for each other but we don’t talk politics. Actually he talks politics and I smile and nod.

Every single time I see Hyde do something stupid in a game I mention it. Everything I mention as being foolish is arguably foolish. I’m not making stuff up because Hyde kicked my dog.

it’s obvious you disagree and that’s just fine. But I’m not creating fact out of fog, so why not just move along.

You think we should be going to the bullpen even earlier than we do, even if we don't have enough bullpen to last the season doing that.   So most of the times time you think it's a FACT that Hyde went an inning too long with the starter, I believe he didn't.   It is your OPINION, and i have mine.   You can't make it more than an opinion by calling it fact.   (Note that I said "most" -- I do believe there are times he has left a guy in too long, but they are FAR fewer than the times you cite).

You also complain when we use our not-so-good relievers in low leverage situations, like if we are down 5-1 in the 6th.   You complain it is "giving up".   The guys are on your roster, we have to use them, that is exactly when we should.

If you managed this team, our best relievers would be burned out completely by June, and our entire bullpen's arms would be falling off by August.

You think Mountcastle should never play the OF and it is a mistake every time Hyde puts him there.  I do not.   H e is not a good outfielder but this is the year we need to put him out there often and see how good he can become.   He's a good athlete who can learn and get better.   Better enough to be a major league starting outfielder?   I don't know.   That's why this year he SHOULD be out there, working with the defensive coaches, to see how good he can get.   So you believe Hyde is wrong to put him out there, I don't.

You complain every time a player you like gets a day off and an inferior player plays.   I think that a manager should give guys days off periodically in the marathon of a season.   

So I disagree with nearly all your criticisms of Hyde, whether you call them "fact" or not.    Do I think Hyde is a great manager?  No, although throughout his tenure I have noticed that the team has tended not to give up when behind, and staged many comebacks, even if eventually losing due to bad pitching.   I like that.   I don't think he has ever "lost" the team.   So that is a plus.   But when you state it as a fact that he is bad and that his contract should not be renewed, or saying he makes unsupportable decisions that some of us feel are very supportable, don't be surprised when people disagree.

(And I'll note that you don't help your cause or argument by your constant failure to specifically say what should have been done.   You will say Hyde "should have had someone up" to start the inning but won't say which reliever it is you wanted up.   You will say you want to get rid of players without saying who you want to replace them, just that they should be gone and that "anyone" would be better).

[Moose Milligan]

22 minutes ago, SteveA said:

You think we should be going to the bullpen even earlier than we do, even if we don't have enough bullpen to last the season doing that.   So most of the times time you think it's a FACT that Hyde went an inning too long with the starter, I believe he didn't.   It is your OPINION, and i have mine.   You can't make it more than an opinion by calling it fact.   (Note that I said "most" -- I do believe there are times he has left a guy in too long, but they are FAR fewer than the times you cite).

You also complain when we use our not-so-good relievers in low leverage situations, like if we are down 5-1 in the 6th.   You complain it is "giving up".   The guys are on your roster, we have to use them, that is exactly when we should.

If you managed this team, our best relievers would be burned out completely by June, and our entire bullpen's arms would be falling off by August.

You think Mountcastle should never play the OF and it is a mistake every time Hyde puts him there.  I do not.   H e is not a good outfielder but this is the year we need to put him out there often and see how good he can become.   He's a good athlete who can learn and get better.   Better enough to be a major league starting outfielder?   I don't know.   That's why this year he SHOULD be out there, working with the defensive coaches, to see how good he can get.   So you believe Hyde is wrong to put him out there, I don't.

You complain every time a player you like gets a day off and an inferior player plays.   I think that a manager should give guys days off periodically in the marathon of a season.   

So I disagree with nearly all your criticisms of Hyde, whether you call them "fact" or not.    Do I think Hyde is a great manager?  No, although throughout his tenure I have noticed that the team has tended not to give up when behind, and staged many comebacks, even if eventually losing due to bad pitching.   I like that.   I don't think he has ever "lost" the team.   So that is a plus.   But when you state it as a fact that he is bad and that his contract should not be renewed, or saying he makes unsupportable decisions that some of us feel are very supportable, don't be surprised when people disagree.

(And I'll note that you don't help your cause or argument by your constant failure to specifically say what should have been done.   You will say Hyde "should have had someone up" to start the inning but won't say which reliever it is you wanted up.   You will say you want to get rid of players without saying who you want to replace them, just that they should be gone and that "anyone" would be better).

Quoted for emphasis.  And a hell of a post.  Well done.

[DrungoHazewood]

1 hour ago, Frobby said:

You can question this decision or that one about pitcher usage.   But John Means can’t pitch 63 innings a week, and right now, nobody else is getting the job done.   

I'm reasonably sure that from Tuesday September 9th, 1884 through Tuesday September 16th Old Hoss Radbourn threw 63 innings, or thereabouts.  bb-ref and retrosheet don't have the box scores back that far, but we know Radbourn agreed to pitch every game after Providence released Charlie Sweeney.  And Radbourne completed all 73 of his starts.  Retrosheet lists him as the starter in each game from August 21st through September 24th, and over that stretch they went 18-3.

So maybe it's a problem of Hyde not expecting enough out of Means.

[Explosivo]

1 hour ago, SteveA said:

You think we should be going to the bullpen even earlier than we do, even if we don't have enough bullpen to last the season doing that.   So most of the times time you think it's a FACT that Hyde went an inning too long with the starter, I believe he didn't.   It is your OPINION, and i have mine.   You can't make it more than an opinion by calling it fact.   (Note that I said "most" -- I do believe there are times he has left a guy in too long, but they are FAR fewer than the times you cite).

You also complain when we use our not-so-good relievers in low leverage situations, like if we are down 5-1 in the 6th.   You complain it is "giving up".   The guys are on your roster, we have to use them, that is exactly when we should.

If you managed this team, our best relievers would be burned out completely by June, and our entire bullpen's arms would be falling off by August.

You think Mountcastle should never play the OF and it is a mistake every time Hyde puts him there.  I do not.   H e is not a good outfielder but this is the year we need to put him out there often and see how good he can become.   He's a good athlete who can learn and get better.   Better enough to be a major league starting outfielder?   I don't know.   That's why this year he SHOULD be out there, working with the defensive coaches, to see how good he can get.   So you believe Hyde is wrong to put him out there, I don't.

You complain every time a player you like gets a day off and an inferior player plays.   I think that a manager should give guys days off periodically in the marathon of a season.   

So I disagree with nearly all your criticisms of Hyde, whether you call them "fact" or not.    Do I think Hyde is a great manager?  No, although throughout his tenure I have noticed that the team has tended not to give up when behind, and staged many comebacks, even if eventually losing due to bad pitching.   I like that.   I don't think he has ever "lost" the team.   So that is a plus.   But when you state it as a fact that he is bad and that his contract should not be renewed, or saying he makes unsupportable decisions that some of us feel are very supportable, don't be surprised when people disagree.

(And I'll note that you don't help your cause or argument by your constant failure to specifically say what should have been done.   You will say Hyde "should have had someone up" to start the inning but won't say which reliever it is you wanted up.   You will say you want to get rid of players without saying who you want to replace them, just that they should be gone and that "anyone" would be better).

And what has happened to Plutko? Well, he’s been used too much as is burnt out.

We also need to see how Harvey can respond in late inning situations. We already know how our bullpen will fair.

I agree that Mountcastle should be out there in the outfield. It’s a great way to learn to get better.

We know that Armstrong Lakins and Scott are having a tough year. I’d see what our rule 5 guys are capable of as well. This season is an afterthought at this point so I’d like for us to see what these kids can do. 
 

If Hyde hasn’t lost this team, who made the call for the bunt?

Edited May 26, 2021 by Explosivo

[OsEatAlEast]

1 hour ago, DrungoHazewood said:

I'm reasonably sure that from Tuesday September 9th, 1884 through Tuesday September 16th Old Hoss Radbourn threw 63 innings, or thereabouts.  bb-ref and retrosheet don't have the box scores back that far, but we know Radbourn agreed to pitch every game after Providence released Charlie Sweeney.  And Radbourne completed all 73 of his starts.  Retrosheet lists him as the starter in each game from August 21st through September 24th, and over that stretch they went 18-3.

So maybe it's a problem of Hyde not expecting enough out of Means.

The lob ball is a hell of a pitch. Just try straightening the ball out when it comes in at a 60 degree angle.

[DrungoHazewood]

4 minutes ago, OsEatAlEast said:

The lob ball is a hell of a pitch. Just try straightening the ball out when it comes in at a 60 degree angle.

Actually by 1884 they'd legalized the overhand pitch, although it was still from a box on flat ground with the front edge 50' from the diamond-shaped plate.  And the catcher stood a good 10' behind the plate until there were two strikes to try to keep from getting killed.  But I have a sneaking suspicion that Ol' Hoss wasn't going max effort in all of his 678 innings.

[Sports Guy]

6 minutes ago, Explosivo said:

And what has happened to Plutko? Well, he’s been used too much as is burnt out.

We also need to see how Harvey can respond in late inning situations. We already know how our bullpen will fair.

I agree that Mountcastle should be out there in the outfield. It’s a great way to learn to get better.

We know that Armstrong Lakins and Scott are having a tough year. I’d see what our rule 5 guys are capable of as well. This season is an afterthought at this point so I’d like for us to see what these kids can do. 
 

If Hyde hasn’t lost this team, who made the call for the bunt?

The idea that you are pointing to one play(and that you keep harping on it) as a reason he has lost the team shows how absurd and ridiculous your point is.

Plutko hasn’t been overused.  He just isn’t good.

[OsEatAlEast]

2 minutes ago, DrungoHazewood said:

Actually by 1884 they'd legalized the overhand pitch, although it was still from a box on flat ground with the front edge 50' from the diamond-shaped plate.  And the catcher stood a good 10' behind the plate until there were two strikes to try to keep from getting killed.  But I have a sneaking suspicion that Ol' Hoss wasn't going max effort in all of his 678 innings.

It's the only way I could picture his arm not falling off.

Edited May 26, 2021 by OsEatAlEast
's

[DrungoHazewood]

7 minutes ago, OsEatAlEast said:

It the only way I could picture his arm not falling off.

I want to see a real game from 1880.  No, one of those recreations doesn't count, because we just don't know things.  How hard did Ol' Hoss or Matt Kilroy throw?  And how often?  Obviously they weren't throwing anything like today or their arms would have fallen off. 

But also they didn't really care about your arm falling off, so often they'd just let pitchers throw until it really hurt enough to quit and go back to a factory where people fell into a threshing machine and died twice a day.  If you let 100 pitchers throw until a ligament snaps some of them will go on for a long time.  That's still true, some of today's pitchers could throw 350 innings, at least at 1970 levels of effort and opponent.  But we don't let them try because 93 of the 100 would break.

[Explosivo]

32 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

The idea that you are pointing to one play(and that you keep harping on it) as a reason he has lost the team shows how absurd and ridiculous your point is.

Plutko hasn’t been overused.  He just isn’t good.

It’s indicative of a team that doesn’t listen to its manager at a pivotal point in the game. I’d say it’s pretty important. We’ve already come to the conclusion that Hyde isn’t a good manager and we would not want him managing when we are good, so if we can recognize he isn’t very good, don’t you think the players can too?

Edited May 26, 2021 by Explosivo

[Sports Guy]

6 minutes ago, Explosivo said:

It’s indicative of a team that doesn’t listen to its manager at a pivotal point in the game. I’d say it’s pretty important. We’ve already come to the conclusion that Hyde isn’t a good manager and we would not want him managing when we are good, so if we can recognize he isn’t very good, don’t you think the players can too?

No, you came to that conclusion.  Many of us think you are full of sh**.

[Frobby]

2 hours ago, Philip said:

I have a beloved friend who is a wild eyed liberal. I’m pretty conservative. I hate fruitless debate and he loves it. He was best man at my wedding and we would happily die for each other but we don’t talk politics. Actually he talks politics and I smile and nod.

Every single time I see Hyde do something stupid in a game I mention it. Everything I mention as being foolish is arguably foolish. I’m not making stuff up because Hyde kicked my dog.

it’s obvious you disagree and that’s just fine. But I’m not creating fact out of fog, so why not just move along.

I don’t think anyone doubts that Hyde makes mistakes.   But I don’t think many of us think that he’s a significant reason why the team is bad.   

Whether he’d be a good manager for a good team is hard to know.  When you have a young, developing team, there are times you make decisions to test players and let them learn from experience at the expense of maximizing the chance of winning the game.   When you’re in a pennant race, not so much.   
 

[Explosivo]

5 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

No, you came to that conclusion.  Many of us think you are full of sh**.

Mulligan came to see that Hyde is not a good manager. Are you saying that he is? What indication leads you to believe that?