Franco to IL, Gutierrez up

[Moose Milligan]

3 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

A lot of folks just have unreasonable expectations.  Most guys don't make the transition to valuable major leaguer. 

That is why you get folks calling the Sisco and Stewart types busts.  Because they don't have a firm grasp on the difficulty involved and don't try and educate themselves.

You also raise a good point in regards to Means, or a Mancini.  Folks see someone that isn't highly ranked make it and it raises the expectations for everyone.

I think people call Sisco and Stewart types busts because of their draft status.  You don't see anyone calling Means and Mancini a bust because of where they were drafted.  Those guys are "diamonds in the rough."

[Moose Milligan]

2 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

The lineup last night, especially 5-9, made me throw up in my mouth a little.

This far into the rebuild and they are still fielding a team full of AAAA guys.  It’s embarrassing.

It ain't far into the rebuild if you think the rebuild is gonna take quite a long time.  From where I'm sitting we're still at the beginning, homie.

That said, it sucks to see AAAA guys no matter where you are.

[Can_of_corn]

1 minute ago, Moose Milligan said:

I think people call Sisco and Stewart types busts because of their draft status.  You don't see anyone calling Means and Mancini a bust because of where they were drafted.  Those guys are "diamonds in the rough."

That wasn't what I was trying to say.

I was saying that the success of folks like Means and Mancini help elevate expectations for other, more highly regarded, prospects.

As for Sisco and Stewart, simply making the majors is sufficient to justify their draft status.

[Moose Milligan]

Just now, Can_of_corn said:

 

I was saying that the success of folks like Means and Mancini help elevate expectations for other, more highly regarded, prospects.

 

Meh, not for me.  

Look, the entire thing is a giant crapshoot.  All of it.  That whole Brad Pitt spiel in Moneyball where he's talking to the scout about not knowing...he was absolutely right.  No one can figure this out.  The NFL is a better example, the entire NFL draft is practically a cottage industry, teams spend several million dollars and a lot of time drafting, interviewing, looking at backgrounds, etc.  And then you get a Tom Brady who slips through the cracks while a Johnny Manziel busts.  If the NFL can't figure it out, no one can.  

If you're saying guys like Means and Mancini having success makes people look at a highly regarded prospect as if to say "well, you SHOULD be good because these two guys were drafted way lower than you and are doing well..."  I understand that line of thinking but I don't agree.

 Speaking personally, I'm fine with looking at them as individuals.  Draft status plays a part in the expectations but I'm not surprised when a guy like Sisco or Stewart "busts."

[Can_of_corn]

1 minute ago, Moose Milligan said:

Meh, not for me.  

Look, the entire thing is a giant crapshoot.  All of it.  That whole Brad Pitt spiel in Moneyball where he's talking to the scout about not knowing...he was absolutely right.  No one can figure this out.  The NFL is a better example, the entire NFL draft is practically a cottage industry, teams spend several million dollars and a lot of time drafting, interviewing, looking at backgrounds, etc.  And then you get a Tom Brady who slips through the cracks while a Johnny Manziel busts.  If the NFL can't figure it out, no one can.  

If you're saying guys like Means and Mancini having success makes people look at a highly regarded prospect as if to say "well, you SHOULD be good because these two guys were drafted way lower than you and are doing well..."  I understand that line of thinking but I don't agree.

 Speaking personally, I'm fine with looking at them as individuals.  Draft status plays a part in the expectations but I'm not surprised when a guy like Sisco or Stewart "busts."

Or the NBA.  In the NFL the size of the teams and complexity of the offensive and defensive schemes can be obfuscating factors.

[Sports Guy]

10 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

It ain't far into the rebuild if you think the rebuild is gonna take quite a long time.  From where I'm sitting we're still at the beginning, homie.

That said, it sucks to see AAAA guys no matter where you are.

Well, it’s plenty far into things in a lot of ways.  But you really aren’t worth discussing this with because you are do overly pessimistic about this stuff.

[Moose Milligan]

2 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Well, it’s plenty far into things in a lot of ways.  But you really aren’t worth discussing this with because you are do overly pessimistic about this stuff.

Gee, thanks.  Tell me why I should be optimistic.

I'll tell you how I see it, you tell me where I'm not being accurate.  We've got a farm system that's ranked in the top 5-8 depending on who's doing the ranking.  It's headed by AR, G-Rod and Hall.  In the lower levels you've got some guys like Gunnar Henderson who could turn into a great prospect.  And there are a lot of guys in the system that seem to be having good seasons and could advance into AA or AAA before the summer is over.  Elias seems to have done a great job in scouting and signing South American talent from the DR and other baseball rich countries such as Venezuela but those guys are too far off to make a difference right now.

We can quibble on here about players not being promoted at a speed in which we'd like to see them promoted, that's fine.  The ML roster deeply lacks in talent in most areas.  The games each night are usually not worth watching and quite a few of the guys from the system we've called up haven't shown us anything.  

If that's being pessimistic, so be it.  From where I sit, that's highly accurate.

In regards to being at the beginning of a rebuild, we absolutely are.  The ML team is barely showing signs of a pulse, and while some good groundwork has been laid, it hasn't paid off at the ML level at all.  IMO, that's at the beginning of a rebuild, where you've done some groundwork but the ML team isn't showing any benefits from it.  I know you want this stuff done faster and I don't disagree with you when you say it should be done faster. At the end of the day we have the ownership group that we have and that's that.  

[Sports Guy]

2 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

Gee, thanks.  Tell me why I should be optimistic.

I'll tell you how I see it, you tell me where I'm not being accurate.  We've got a farm system that's ranked in the top 5-8 depending on who's doing the ranking.  It's headed by AR, G-Rod and Hall.  In the lower levels you've got some guys like Gunnar Henderson who could turn into a great prospect.  And there are a lot of guys in the system that seem to be having good seasons and could advance into AA or AAA before the summer is over.  Elias seems to have done a great job in scouting and signing South American talent from the DR and other baseball rich countries such as Venezuela but those guys are too far off to make a difference right now.

We can quibble on here about players not being promoted at a speed in which we'd like to see them promoted, that's fine.  The ML roster deeply lacks in talent in most areas.  The games each night are usually not worth watching and quite a few of the guys from the system we've called up haven't shown us anything.  

If that's being pessimistic, so be it.  From where I sit, that's highly accurate.

In regards to being at the beginning of a rebuild, we absolutely are.  The ML team is barely showing signs of a pulse, and while some good groundwork has been laid, it hasn't paid off at the ML level at all.  IMO, that's at the beginning of a rebuild, where you've done some groundwork but the ML team isn't showing any benefits from it.  I know you want this stuff done faster and I don't disagree with you when you say it should be done faster. At the end of the day we have the ownership group that we have and that's that.  

The ML roster lacking for talent, as it is, is inexcusable at this point.

You have already torn the roster down.   You have cut back costs.  The rebuild is over.  
 

The tearing down of things is where the rebuilding starts and that is a few years in the making and has basically been completed.

At this point, they should be bettering the ML team and they should be giving the ML ready young players a chance to play up here.

You find it funny that people are asking for Jones.  You obviously, as all prospects, think he will be nothing.  You may be right.  Most prospects are nothing.  That being said, he should be getting his chance and as a fan, you should want that and you should be “demanding” that.  Watching Valaika and Leyba and guys like that is a joke.  I don’t have much interest in even watching games because there are do few players worth watching.

[Can_of_corn]

9 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

Gee, thanks.  Tell me why I should be optimistic.

I'll tell you how I see it, you tell me where I'm not being accurate.  We've got a farm system that's ranked in the top 5-8 depending on who's doing the ranking.  It's headed by AR, G-Rod and Hall.  In the lower levels you've got some guys like Gunnar Henderson who could turn into a great prospect.  And there are a lot of guys in the system that seem to be having good seasons and could advance into AA or AAA before the summer is over.  Elias seems to have done a great job in scouting and signing South American talent from the DR and other baseball rich countries such as Venezuela but those guys are too far off to make a difference right now.

We can quibble on here about players not being promoted at a speed in which we'd like to see them promoted, that's fine.  The ML roster deeply lacks in talent in most areas.  The games each night are usually not worth watching and quite a few of the guys from the system we've called up haven't shown us anything.  

If that's being pessimistic, so be it.  From where I sit, that's highly accurate.

In regards to being at the beginning of a rebuild, we absolutely are.  The ML team is barely showing signs of a pulse, and while some good groundwork has been laid, it hasn't paid off at the ML level at all.  IMO, that's at the beginning of a rebuild, where you've done some groundwork but the ML team isn't showing any benefits from it.  I know you want this stuff done faster and I don't disagree with you when you say it should be done faster. At the end of the day we have the ownership group that we have and that's that.  

Quote

Fangraphs finally finished its farm system evaluations this week.   As a reminder, they place a value on each tier — e.g., a FV 65 position player (Rutschman) is worth $62 mm, a 55 FV pitcher (Rodriguez) is worth $34 mm, etc.   The values at the top of the scale are many multiples of those at the bottom, where a 35+ FV player is worth $500 k.

Using this system, the Orioles come in 11th of 30,

 

[Moose Milligan]

39 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

The ML roster lacking for talent, as it is, is inexcusable at this point.

You have already torn the roster down.   You have cut back costs.  The rebuild is over.  
 

The tearing down of things is where the rebuilding starts and that is a few years in the making and has basically been completed.

At this point, they should be bettering the ML team and they should be giving the ML ready young players a chance to play up here.

You find it funny that people are asking for Jones.  You obviously, as all prospects, think he will be nothing.  You may be right.  Most prospects are nothing.  That being said, he should be getting his chance and as a fan, you should want that and you should be “demanding” that.  Watching Valaika and Leyba and guys like that is a joke.  I don’t have much interest in even watching games because there are do few players worth watching.

Sure, I think all of these guys should be getting a shot, and I've said as much.  I'm not against Jahmai Jones coming up, I just think people's expectations of what he is are pretty weird.  But that's the thing...statistically, most of these guys don't stand a chance.  A couple weeks ago you and I got into a back and forth about trading guys over 30, I was poking fun at you but I agreed.  Trading guys over 30 usually is a good bet and you'll come out ahead more times than not.

Prospects and their chances are my version of that.  Most of them don't pan out to be very good.  And the Orioles have been doing a seemingly worse job than most at the prospect game (granted, they've had one hand tied behind their back during the Angelos administration...not being able to touch the SA market has been terrible).  You said it yourself, most prospects are nothing.  If shouting that from the rooftops makes me "pessimistic," in your view, I'm really comfortable with that.  But you and I seem to agree on the idea that most prospects are nothing, I would say we're realists.  

 I don't know how much "demanding" i can really do from a keyboard, but that's neither here nor there.  Of course I'd like to see Jahmai Jones up, it'll happen eventually.  

[Sports Guy]

7 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

Sure, I think all of these guys should be getting a shot, and I've said as much.  I'm not against Jahmai Jones coming up, I just think people's expectations of what he is are pretty weird.  But that's the thing...statistically, most of these guys don't stand a chance.  A couple weeks ago you and I got into a back and forth about trading guys over 30, I was poking fun at you but I agreed.  Trading guys over 30 usually is a good bet and you'll come out ahead more times than not.

Prospects and their chances are my version of that.  Most of them don't pan out to be very good.  And the Orioles have been doing a seemingly worse job than most at the prospect game (granted, they've had one hand tied behind their back during the Angelos administration...not being able to touch the SA market has been terrible).  You said it yourself, most prospects are nothing.  If shouting that from the rooftops makes me "pessimistic," in your view, I'm really comfortable with that.  But you and I seem to agree on the idea that most prospects are nothing, I would say we're realists.  

 I don't know how much "demanding" i can really do from a keyboard, but that's neither here nor there.  Of course I'd like to see Jahmai Jones up, it'll happen eventually.  

What are people’s expectations of Jones?

[Moose Milligan]

1 minute ago, Sports Guy said:

What are people’s expectations of Jones?

Hell if I know, I'm not going to go round up all the posts where people have said what they think he'll be. But fine, let me amend my statement:

I think it's weird that people are aggressively pining for Jones to be called up as if he's significantly better than what we have right now.  

[Sports Guy]

Just now, Moose Milligan said:

Hell if I know, I'm not going to go round up all the posts where people have said what they think he'll be. But fine, let me amend my statement:

I think it's weird that people are aggressively pining for Jones to be called up as if he's significantly better than what we have right now.  

His upside is clearly higher than what we have right now.

[Moose Milligan]

Just now, Sports Guy said:

His upside is clearly higher than what we have right now.

Sure.  But as we agreed upon a minute or so ago, most prospects don't amount to anything. 

Don't mind me, I'm being pessimistic.  (Even though I'd like to see Jones up, too.)

[Sports Guy]

2 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

Sure.  But as we agreed upon a minute or so ago, most prospects don't amount to anything. 

Don't mind me, I'm being pessimistic.  (Even though I'd like to see Jones up, too.)

Yea but they still need to be given a shot.  This team is sending out players that have zero chance at being here when the team is good and they are almost certainly never going to be on a team that is winning on a consistent basis anywhere in the league.

There is no excuse for that when you have alternative options that are young, cheap and carry upside.