(Edit: Orioles get 1st pick after walkoff homer by Diamondbacks)

[Can_of_corn]

23 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Arizona only 1 game back in the loss column but they have several More wins due to more games played.

Texas and Pitt aren’t too far off either. Amazing that you have a 14 and 19 game losing streak, are only winning 31% of your games and you still are teetering on picking 4th.

Will this be the new normal for teams if changes aren't made?

As long as you can convince the fan base why wouldn't ownership sign off?

[Sports Guy]

22 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Will this be the new normal for teams if changes aren't made?

As long as you can convince the fan base why wouldn't ownership sign off?

Fans just believe this works because they see Chicago and Houston…but the reality is that tanking and rebuilding helped but wasn’t the determining factor in winning.

[Can_of_corn]

13 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Fans just believe this works because they see Chicago and Houston…but the reality is that tanking and rebuilding helped but wasn’t the determining factor in winning.

The reality isn't important.  If ownership and management can sell a fanbase on the idea that drastically lowered payrolls and expectations are acceptable a decent amount of them are going to take that path. 

Who wouldn't want to be a GM that has no expectations to meet for 3+ years?  What owner wouldn't want to slash payroll to the bone and increase their profitability?

The tank model is great if you can get the fans to sign off.

 

And if you are the Phillies and it doesn't work?  Bring in a new GM and try again.

[Sports Guy]

4 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

The reality isn't important.  If ownership and management can sell a fanbase on the idea that drastically lowered payrolls and expectations are acceptable a decent amount of them are going to take that path. 

Who wouldn't want to be a GM that has no expectations to meet for 3+ years?  What owner wouldn't want to slash payroll to the bone and increase their profitability?

The tank model is great if you can get the fans to sign off.

 

And if you are the Phillies and it doesn't work?  Bring in a new GM and try again.

Yep.  I just don’t get why fans buy into it.  

[Aglets]

5 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Yep.  I just don’t get why fans buy into it.  

Well the key thing is that you are so willing to engage in open-minded debate with others who have a different opinion than you and have a respectful exchange of ideas.   And aren't one that thinks that only your opinion is valid.

You also obviously know why.  You just are dismissing the historical record of what other teams did (I think unfairly).

[Can_of_corn]

3 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Yep.  I just don’t get why fans buy into it.  

Teams have figured out how to sell it.

First step is showing them how the current team is flawed, then they point out teams that have had success by tanking.  Then they get the local media on board.

 

[Can_of_corn]

1 minute ago, Aglets said:

Well the key thing is that you are so willing to engage in open-minded debate with others who have a different opinion than you and have a respectful exchange of ideas.   And aren't one that thinks that only your opinion is valid.

You also obviously know why.  You just are dismissing the record of what other teams did (I think unfairly).

But it isn't as if tanking is the only way to rebuild or that every team that tanks ends up winning.

It is a way, not the way.

[Sports Guy]

2 minutes ago, Aglets said:

Well the key thing is that you are so willing to engage in open-minded debate with others who have a different opinion than you and have a respectful exchange of ideas.   And aren't one that thinks that only your opinion is valid.

You also obviously know why.  You just are dismissing the record of what other teams did (I think unfairly).

I’m more than willing to engage in the conversations. It’s dumb to suggest otherwise.  

But there isn’t a lot of evidence that rebuild of several years is necessary to win.  That’s just a fact.   

[Aglets]

Just now, Can_of_corn said:

Teams have figured out how to sell it.

First step is showing them how the current team is flawed, then they point out teams that have had success by tanking.  Then they get the local media on board.

 

Not sure why I keep engaging with you guys on this.  But I would like to ask you something straight up here.   What do you think Elias's motives were in 2018-19 when he came in and laid out his plan for a detailed rebuild?

Seems to me you have to say he was either being sincere (this is what I and many others believe) or you have to say he was being totally fully of crap and just going along with a sinister scheme by ownership to get payroll down in perpetuity.   What do you believe.

[Sports Guy]

2 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

But it isn't as if tanking is the only way to rebuild or that every team that tanks ends up winning.

It is a way, not the way.

And when it “works” it only works a little bit.  
 

 

[Sports Guy]

1 minute ago, Aglets said:

Not sure why I keep engaging with you guys on this.  But I would like to ask you something straight up here.   What do you think Elias's motives were in 2018-19 when he came in and laid out his plan for a detailed rebuild?

Seems to me you have to say he was either being sincere (this is what I and many others believe) or you have to say he was being totally fully of crap and just going along with a sinister scheme by ownership to get payroll down in perpetuity.   What do you believe.

You keep asking this but it’s a meaningless question.

You keep talking about how he has been up front, told us what he was going to do, etc…so what?  What is that supposed to mean?  Does that mean that just because he said it, that we should be ok with it?  That we should ignore the evidence of those who have done it?  
 

Yes, we all knew this was going to be the case.  I’m just trying to figure out why that should matter when discussing it.

[Can_of_corn]

1 minute ago, Aglets said:

Not sure why I keep engaging with you guys on this.  But I would like to ask you something straight up here.   What do you think Elias's motives were in 2018-19 when he came in and laid out his plan for a detailed rebuild?

Seems to me you have to say he was either being sincere (this is what I and many others believe) or you have to say he was being totally fully of crap and just going along with a sinister scheme by ownership to get payroll down in perpetuity.   What do you believe.

I think that since that was the type of rebuild he was familiar with it was the kind he could sell to ownership.

That's what he knows.  He's a draft guy, he's going to go towards his strengths.

I think deeply cutting payroll was very attractive to ownership.

[Can_of_corn]

3 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

And when it “works” it only works a little bit.  
 

 

Would be nice if these noncompetitive seasons were being used to give actual prospects major league experience. 

[Aglets]

2 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

But it isn't as if tanking is the only way to rebuild or that every team that tanks ends up winning.

It is a way, not the way.

This whole thing you and SG keep arguing about how this "isn't the only way to rebuild" seems like a total red herring and a strawman to me.  I have never said and will never say that there is NO OTHER way to build a winning team.     

What I have said is that this is a way.  And we have seen it work.  Our current GM has seen it work up close.    When my team becomes a perpetual winner I am not going to lose a lot of sleep over "oh I'm glad that we are going on all these deep playoff runs but did they really HAVE to do the rebuild this way?"    Will you?

[Can_of_corn]

Just now, Aglets said:

This whole thing you and SG keep arguing about how this "isn't the only way to rebuild" seems like a total red herring and a strawman to me.  I have never said and will never say that there is NO OTHER way to build a winning team.     

What I have said is that this is a way.  And we have seen it work.  Our current GM has seen it work up close.    When my team becomes a perpetual winner I am not going to lose a lot of sleep over "oh I'm glad that we are going on all these deep playoff runs but did they really HAVE to do the rebuild this way?"    Will you?

I'm not saying that you did.

Other folks are certainly of the view that this was the only way.

If this team becomes a perpetual winner I expect I'll be taking crap daily from every angle.