Buster Olney misses the point

[Oriolidae85]

Not if you read it without any preconceived notion that the O's are being attacked by the dastardly national media once again.

I admit my thinking falls in line with some preconceived notions...it is based on the the fact that Oriole players do not receive deserved recognition in the form of highlight reals, articles and even voting. Take Markakis for example, he arguably is the best defending RF, no gold glove going his way.

My "preconceived notions" are a direct result of articles like BO's most recent Teixeira offering when they state that it is perfectly "good for baseball" for a player to be signed by the Red Sox, when the SOX already have the position taken at a much cheaper cost....and then turnaround and say the O's/Nat's actions are "lunacy" when they have a glaring need for the position.

I agree with BO on one point...that it could handcuff the Orioles with such a large deal...but IMO it handcuff's the Sox even more to pay that price for a postion that is not in need. More risk on the Sox signing Tex than the O's, IMO.

The tone of the article is disrespectful to Oriole and Nat's fans and is directed at Sox posters....it is also one of many reason's I canceled my "insider" account several months ago

[Fan4Life]

The fact that Tejada's contract didn't wind up a disaster doesn't change the fact that it didn't work, either. He was signed to spearhead the O's revival on the field and at the ticket window. Neither materialized.

I still think that's superficial thinking. There was never a point at which Tejada alone was going to bring this franchise back to the promise land. And considering the lack of support the FO / ownership brought in house to help Tejada get where we wanted to go, I'll agree with you that it didn't work. Which has nothing to do with the amount of money we paid him.

[Oriolidae85]

The fact that Tejada's contract didn't wind up a disaster doesn't change the fact that it didn't work, either. He was signed to spearhead the O's revival on the field and at the ticket window. Neither materialized.

It did net the O's Albers, Patton, Scott and others and brought in at least one potential MVP season at a very reasonable price for Tejada!

[AZOriole]

Or, perhaps Olney is saying, "hey Orioles, don't become the next Rangers/ARod, Reds/Griffey, Giants/Zito, Astros/Carlos Lee, etc. etc."

Heck the O's themselves can be added to the list with Tejada.

History shows pretty clearly that taking a bad team and adding a bigname FA usually doesn't work, let alone work wonders like some here are hoping it will.

This is a very interesting way to look at it, with the Astros being a prime example. They went out and traded for Tejada, while giving up something that didn't have much of - minor league talent. Then, they go and throw huge money at Carlos Lee, while not addressing their main problem - pitching. They have an ace in Roy Oswalt, and a bunch 4th/5th starters after that. And now, the Astros are shedding salary. Oswalt himself said a couple of days ago that he would cut some of his salary if it meant landing a big name FA pitcher. But their problem is far beyond Roy-O shedding a couple mil off of his salary.

They're now in a predicament of not having the money to improve. Not having much of a farm system with which to improve. And possibly having to trade one of their very few assets in Oswalt (pure speculation on that part, but has been talked about: http://blogs.chron.com/sportsjustice/archives/2008/12/will_oswalt_ask.html)

On the flip side, the Orioles do have a pretty deep pitching farm (Matusz, Arrieta, Tillman, etc), and young talent coming up through the ranks (Wieters, Reimold, etc). Is that enough to get them to the top of the hill? Who knows? Tampa wasn't expected to be even half way up the hill last year, and they got there. The bottom line is that, yes, it's a risk. But I think it's a risk the Orioles have to take at this point.

Allright, I am going to come up for air. :laughlol:

[Travis McGee]

Or, perhaps Olney is saying, "hey Orioles, don't become the next Rangers/ARod, Reds/Griffey, Giants/Zito, Astros/Carlos Lee, etc. etc."

Heck the O's themselves can be added to the list with Tejada.

History shows pretty clearly that taking a bad team and adding a bigname FA usually doesn't work, let alone work wonders like some here are hoping it will.

If they don't push to sign him and we watch Roberts and Markakis walk someone on the other side of the table might be saying," hey Orioles, don't become Kansas City or Pittsburgh."

[davearm]

I admit my thinking falls in line with some preconceived notions...it is based on the the fact that Oriole players do not receive deserved recognition in the form of highlight reals, articles and even voting. Take Markakis for example, he arguably is the best defending RF, no gold glove going his way.

My "preconceived notions" are a direct result of articles like BO's most recent Teixeira offering when they state that it is perfectly "good for baseball" for a player to be signed by the Red Sox, when the SOX already have the position taken at a much cheaper cost....and then turnaround and say the O's/Nat's actions are "lunacy" when they have a glaring need for the position.

I agree with BO on one point...that it could handcuff the Orioles with such a large deal...but IMO it handcuff's the Sox even more to pay that price for a postion that is not in need. More risk on the Sox signing Tex than the O's, IMO.

The tone of the article is disrespectful to Oriole and Nat's fans and is directed at Sox posters....it is also one of many reason's I canceled my "insider" account several months ago

Fair enough. Rightly or wrongly, some O's fans seem to have developed an instinctive, reflexive urge to feel disrespected by articles such as this, even if/when there's an underlying current of truth present, and no animosity or disrespect intended.

Put it this way: there would be a lot more folks here in agreement with the premise of the article if it had been written about the SF Giants pursuing CC Sabathia, for example (before CCS signed with NYY, obviously).

[AZOriole]

I admit my thinking falls in line with some preconceived notions...it is based on the the fact that Oriole players do not receive deserved recognition in the form of highlight reals, articles and even voting. Take Markakis for example, he arguably is the best defending RF, no gold glove going his way.

My "preconceived notions" are a direct result of articles like BO's most recent Teixeira offering when they state that it is perfectly "good for baseball" for a player to be signed by the Red Sox, when the SOX already have the position taken at a much cheaper cost....and then turnaround and say the O's/Nat's actions are "lunacy" when they have a glaring need for the position.

I agree with BO on one point...that it could handcuff the Orioles with such a large deal...but IMO it handcuff's the Sox even more to pay that price for a postion that is not in need. More risk on the Sox signing Tex than the O's, IMO.

The tone of the article is disrespectful to Oriole and Nat's fans and is directed at Sox posters....it is also one of many reason's I canceled my "insider" account several months ago

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Gold Gloves aren't given by LF/RF/CF, but rather just OF, correct?

[Mackus]

The fact that Tejada's contract didn't wind up a disaster doesn't change the fact that it didn't work, either. He was signed to spearhead the O's revival on the field and at the ticket window. Neither materialized.

I always hate when people use this logic.

When people make this case, it always boils down to something like this:

We are several moves away from being a contending team. This one move will not make us a contender. Therefore, we should not make this one move.

By that logic, the team will always be stuck in a cycle of losing. At some point, you have to make the first move and then hope that you can continue to make the right moves to build a contender.

Its not always the best idea to start off with the first move as essentially the biggest move, but the Tex in Baltimore scenario is one in which I think that would be a good way to go about things.

[Mackus]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Gold Gloves aren't given by LF/RF/CF, but rather just OF, correct?

That is correct.

[OnTheBlack]

Or, perhaps Olney is saying, "hey Orioles, don't become the next Rangers/ARod, Reds/Griffey, Giants/Zito, Astros/Carlos Lee, etc. etc."

Heck the O's themselves can be added to the list with Tejada.

History shows pretty clearly that taking a bad team and adding a bigname FA usually doesn't work, let alone work wonders like some here are hoping it will.

I complete agree with your core point of signing a big FA not being the answer when you aren't capable of surrounding that big signing with quality. I feel that we have the unique situation where we are certainly up-and-coming on the pitching side, and we have some quality bats in our lineup. I think we also need to consider that a Tex signing would very likely have a ripple effect in regard to getting extensions done with Markakis and Roberts (although I am not against trading Roberts). It'll also lure more quality FA signings in the future - we need to make the Orioles a team that players look to, not a place we have to really sell players on. You do that with winning and you do that with showing you can get the very best. These usually go hand in hand - however, as we are not a winning team at the moment, the fact that we have a chance to get a top-notch player regardless is something we really need to take advantage of.

[Lucky Jim]

Fair enough. Rightly or wrongly, some O's fans seem to have developed an instinctive, reflexive urge to feel disrespected by articles such as this, even if/when there's an underlying current of truth present, and no animosity or disrespect intended.

Put it this way: there would be a lot more folks here in agreement with the premise of the article if it had been written about the SF Giants pursuing CC Sabathia, for example (before CCS signed with NYY, obviously).

In general I agree with this. However, lunacy = disrespect. It's not lunacy. It can be rationalized. It's a calculated gamble. It's not lunacy.

[waroriole]

I always hate when people use this logic.

When people make this case, it always boils down to something like this:

We are several moves away from being a contending team. This one move will not make us a contender. Therefore, we should not make this one move.

By that logic, the team will always be stuck in a cycle of losing. At some point, you have to make the first move and then hope that you can continue to make the right moves to build a contender.

Its not always the best idea to start off with the first move as essentially the biggest move, but the Tex in Baltimore scenario is one in which I think that would be a good way to go about things.

I agree with this and will add that this is not really the first move. It's the first big FA signing, but it may be the only big FA signing. The first moves were made last winter when we acquired Jones, Sherrill, Scott, Sarfate, Tillman, Albers, Patton et al for Bedard and Tejada. Those were the initial moves that have put us in a position to be sustainably competitive for the foreseeable future. Signing Tex this year may be a year or two early, but we don't get to decide when he becomes a FA. Plus, if you're looking to let the young guys come together and sign a big FA next year, good luck b/c there aren't any.

[davearm]

I still think that's superficial thinking. There was never a point at which Tejada alone was going to bring this franchise back to the promise land. And considering the lack of support the FO / ownership brought in house to help Tejada get where we wanted to go, I'll agree with you that it didn't work. Which has nothing to do with the amount of money we paid him.

Well the conventional wisdom is that the O's 'master plan' with Tejada the centerpiece never worked because they didn't follow it up with other impact signings. Except they did, with Javy Lopez and Palmiero, and that still wasn't enough.

Now in the present case you're talking about potentially limiting the O's ability to chase premiere free agents to complement Tex much more dramatically than Tejada's deal ever did. I mean the numbers speak for themselves. Teixeira could be an even $100M larger commitment. You'd be nuts not to recognize the limitations that sort of resource allocation creates.

[davearm]

It did net the O's Albers, Patton, Scott and others and brought in at least one potential MVP season at a very reasonable price for Tejada!

The O's did very well in that trade with the Astros, no doubt.

But nobody's talking about signing Teixeira because of what he could be traded for down the road when the team is still limping along below .500.

[OnTheBlack]

Well the conventional wisdom is that the O's 'master plan' with Tejada the centerpiece never worked because they didn't follow it up with other impact signings. Except they did, with Javy Lopez and Palmiero, and that still wasn't enough.

Now in the present case you're talking about potentially limiting the O's ability to chase premiere free agents to complement Tex much more dramatically than Tejada's deal ever did. I mean the numbers speak for themselves. Teixeira could be an even $100M larger commitment. You'd be nuts not to recognize the limitations that sort of resource allocation creates.

There is been one constant throughout all of these signings that has been missing - I'll give you a hint, it starts with a "P"...