Shortstops, shortstops everywhere

[Frobby]

2 hours ago, tinman said:

I do not like WAR that is propped up by defensive metrics. Mateo is worth 10 runs saved in fielding in 105 games when hes never put up defense numbers like that before in his career. At this rate he will be over 15 runs saved for the season. That isnt sustainable unless you're Simmons or Smith or somebody like that.

 

His is a below average hitter and hitting is the primary method 99% of non catchers add value to their team.

I agree you have to be a little wary of defense-heavy WAR totals in a single year.   But it’s a vast exaggeration to say “hitting is the primary method 99% of non-catchers add value to their teams.”   Every non-DH adds (or subtracts) value with both offense and defense, and there are plenty of players who have long careers mostly due to above average defense.   

[BohKnowsBmore]

9 hours ago, scarey1999 said:

Not to mention 19 year old Dominican 2020 class international signee Frederick Bencosme at Delmarva hitting over .370 now with an OPS north of .900. 

He was one of our higher bonus guys, right?

Separately, is there any good 'archive' or collection of links to our last several international signing classes as tracked by the OH? Tracking the info down via the Google machine can be incredibly difficult.

[Riggodrill44]

9 hours ago, Can_of_corn said:

I'm sure you can transition one to catcher.  I've heard how easy it is.

Jorge Posada says hey.

[RVAOsFan]

7 hours ago, now said:

You mean platinum glove defense? First I've heard that. Great news if it's close to being right.

This is what I was referring to, it was posted in the Law Midseason report thread (my original paraphrase was a little off):

2. Gunnar Henderson, 3B/SS, Baltimore Orioles

Previous ranking: No. 73

The O’s have split Henderson’s time in the field almost evenly between his two positions. While he’s at least a solid-average defender at short, he might end up a Gold Glover at third, and I think he’ll provide more value at the hot corner. He’s shown a huge capacity for making adjustments at the plate over his two full years in pro ball, especially against right-handed pitchers, whom he’s dominated so far this year. He’s still got some work to do against lefties. Since he reached Triple A, he’s been hitting the ball on the ground more, so he might not be ready for an imminent call-up, but he has huge upside on both sides of the ball and could be the Orioles’ best defensive player since Manny Machado.

[now]

1 hour ago, RVAOsFan said:

This is what I was referring to, it was posted in the Law Midseason report thread (my original paraphrase was a little off):

2. Gunnar Henderson, 3B/SS, Baltimore Orioles

Previous ranking: No. 73

The O’s have split Henderson’s time in the field almost evenly between his two positions. While he’s at least a solid-average defender at short, he might end up a Gold Glover at third, and I think he’ll provide more value at the hot corner. He’s shown a huge capacity for making adjustments at the plate over his two full years in pro ball, especially against right-handed pitchers, whom he’s dominated so far this year. He’s still got some work to do against lefties. Since he reached Triple A, he’s been hitting the ball on the ground more, so he might not be ready for an imminent call-up, but he has huge upside on both sides of the ball and could be the Orioles’ best defensive player since Manny Machado.

Thanks for the clarification. That's still pretty high praise for the defense that I wasn't aware of. 

[scarey1999]

3 hours ago, BohKnowsBmore said:

He was one of our higher bonus guys, right?

Separately, is there any good 'archive' or collection of links to our last several international signing classes as tracked by the OH? Tracking the info down via the Google machine can be incredibly difficult.

No, he was actually super cheap with only a $10k signing bonus. 

https://www.masnsports.com/blog/minor-league-notes-on-dl-hall-frederick-bencosme-and-more

The recent big bonus baby SS guys you’re probably think of are Maikol Hernandez and Leandro Arias. They were million dollar plus signings if I recall correctly. Arias is 17 and starting to put it together in the Dominican Summer League, while Hernandez, 18, is really struggling in the FCL. 

You’re right, it is tough to try to find this information. I’m not sure there is a good “tracker” anywhere. Usually the best info is provided on the big official international signing days. Teams usually announce who they’ve signed and for how much, at least for the big guys/known names. Sometimes the smaller frys, you may not hear what they sign for until, or if, they start to make a name for themselves. 

[bluedog]

I suspect that Elias is waiting for Mateo's value to peak before he moves him for pitching. If Mateo shows real progress as a hitter over the rest of the season combined with his defense and baserunning, I wonder what he'd command in trade? It would have to be better than what Mancini brought back given his position right?

[RZNJ]

25 minutes ago, bluedog said:

I suspect that Elias is waiting for Mateo's value to peak before he moves him for pitching. If Mateo shows real progress as a hitter over the rest of the season combined with his defense and baserunning, I wonder what he'd command in trade? It would have to be better than what Mancini brought back given his position right?

No doubt.   Mateo's OPS was over .650 the other day.   Even at .650 he's got value.   If he has a strong second half and has his OPS in the .700 area I think he's got a ton of value.   Why?   Because he's a toolsy guy who is seen as putting it together.    The defense continues to be outstanding, he's showing power and speed.    And he's 27, 1st time arbitration eligible and controllable for 3 more full years.   I'm not going to guess what he could bring back.   Let's just say, I think he'll easily have more value than Mancini did and probably more value than Lopez did.

It's only one year but I think an Andrelton Simmons comparison is valid for when Simmons was on the Braves.  After 3 years of great defense and subpar hitting Simmons was dealt for a recent 1st round pitching prospect (Sean Neucomb) and recent 3rd round pitcher (Chris Ellis. Yeah, that Chris Ellis!) and Erick Aybar  (A veteran SS).     Mateo because of his speed and power is a guy teams can dream a little on as a 40 SB, 20 homer SS who plays great defense.

Simmons was 25/26 when he was dealt.  Service time about the same.

Edited August 4, 2022 by RZNJ

[tntoriole]

Mateo is going to be a star  .. he is going to hit better and better .. 

He just brings an intensity to his game that says star quality stuff 

[Tony-OH]

5 hours ago, BohKnowsBmore said:

He was one of our higher bonus guys, right?

Separately, is there any good 'archive' or collection of links to our last several international signing classes as tracked by the OH? Tracking the info down via the Google machine can be incredibly difficult.

No, he was a late bloomer who was signed for peanuts. A real good job by Koby Perez.

[Frobby]

Just now, tntoriole said:

Mateo is going to be a star  .. he is going to hit better and better .. 

He just brings an intensity to his game that says star quality stuff 

I am doubtful about that, but I hope you’re right.   

[jerios55]

11 hours ago, bluedog said:

Elias has a secret strategy to field a shortstop at every position.

Better than our previous "field a DH/1B at every position" approach.

[sportsfan8703]

6 minutes ago, tntoriole said:

Mateo is going to be a star  .. he is going to hit better and better .. 

He just brings an intensity to his game that says star quality stuff 

Mateo made a few plays late in the game yesterday, before the insurance runs, that not a lot of other SS make. 
 

I don’t think the defense is going anywhere.  I think he ends up at 15 HR and 40 SB this year. 
 

With him it could be a case of someone concentrating so much on their defense that their offense suffered. 
 

It real hard to criticize Mateo right now. We may have a GG at CF, SS, and C. Sounds like Gunnar has that potential at 3B. You can win a lot of games like that. 

[wildcard]

14 hours ago, Frobby said:

- Jorge Mateo has been worth 2.3 rWAR in 105 games and his bat has been coming on of late.  

- Gunnar Henderson is considered a top 10 prospect by many sources and has split his time between SS and 3B about equally.

- Jordan Westburg is slumping a bit right now but has had a solid system switching between SS, 2B and 3B.

- Joey Ortiz had a slow start this season but has destroyed AA the last five weeks and is considered the best defender at SS in our system.  

- We just drafted high school SS phenomenal Jackson Holliday at 1:1.   He figures to start at Delmarva next year and move fast.   

- We also paid a large overslot bonus to SS Carter Young to lure him from transferring from Vanderbilt to LSU.

It’s going to be fascinating to see how this logjam at SS sorts itself out over the next 1-4 years.   


 

I think Ortiz is considered the best defensive SS in the O's minors but not in the organization.   I have not heard anyone say Ortiz is a better defensive SS than Mateo.

[Frobby]

8 minutes ago, wildcard said:

I think Ortiz is considered the best defensive SS in the O's minors but not in the organization.   I have not heard anyone say Ortiz is a better defensive SS than Mateo.

When I said “in our system” I meant our minor league system.  If he’s better than Mateo, he’ll have to come up and prove it.