Mike Mussina’s comments on the new wall in LF

[Can_of_corn]

7 minutes ago, Just Regular said:

What Driveline and the hedge fund managers are doing to pitchers is going to take a lot of Jay Jaffe Cooperstown Casebook explaining in 20-30 years.     Guys whose career totals are going to look flimsy to 70-year-olds remembering Randy Johnson will nonetheless probably have been the very greatest pitchers of their generation.

How many MLB innings will Grayson Rodriguez throw through Age 26?

In a vacuum, Mike Mussina having New York Yankees teammates instead of Baltimore Orioles teammates the back part of his career doesn't much affect the pitcher he was.

For today's races, I'm interested to see what the Rays do with their Shane McClanahan.    He's starting to look a little wilty, and has already matched last year's platform near ~130 innings.

You are right.

A lot of HoF voters still look at numbers like Wins and Losses and milestones like 20 win seasons.

Those numbers would have suffered if he had stayed with the O's.

Considering how long it took him to make the Hall I think it's reasonable to think that staying with the O's could have kept him out.

[Just Regular]

22 hours ago, ExileAngelos said:

Mine too.  Which is why him leaving for the MFY's is one of the most depressing things that I have ever experienced as a sports fan in my lifetime.  

Maybe Mike Elias' too?    I'll admit something I like about the Elias biography is him having been a proper NoVa Orioles fan growing up.   It seems clear to me that Mussina and Elias' views on baseball are somewhat similar, and as a high school pitcher good enough to pitch college around the time of Mussina's greatness, I might guess he'd be the rare ex-big leaguer Elias could be a little starstruck to meet in real life.     As Elias' Orioles teams get better, I'm curious to see if he'll be able to reengage Mussina more than once in 30 years.

I like the idea of Mussina bumping around with Grayson Rodriguez or any Cy Young type pitchers that can be rustled up at some spring training to be named later.      Whereas the idea of Cal poking around with Gunnar next spring feels discordant, not that it would ever happen.

Edited August 8, 2022 by Just Regular

[DrungoHazewood]

13 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

You are right.

A lot of HoF voters still look at numbers like Wins and Losses and milestones like 20 win seasons.

Those numbers would have suffered if he had stayed with the O's.

Considering how long it took him to make the Hall I think it's reasonable to think that staying with the O's could have kept him out.

He would have eventually gone in, even if it took a while.  The HOF needs to come to a reckoning eventually, and figure out new standards for pitchers.  Or they'll end up in a place where they're still relying on old standards and no pitchers go in for years and years on end.

Look at someone like DeGrom.  Mussina had more value with the Orioles than DeGrom has had in his whole career so far and he's 34.  Robbie Ray is 30, Mussina had more innings through age 26.

Even if Mussina only had 250 wins if he'd been a career Oriole, that's 53 more wins than Max Scherzer, who'll walk into the Hall first ballot even if he retired next year.

[Tony-OH]

3 hours ago, foxfield said:

Tony, I remember this story and your using $$ for the two ss in Mikes name.  And like many I have shared in the pain of what could have been.  I remember Mike being spectacular in the playoffs against Randy Johnson.  I remember him being our last true Ace.

We all know the story of Angelos failing to act soon enough.  Joe Torre personally calling to say how much he wanted Mike to come be a Yankee.  And we all know Mike was as they say "aloof".

But it always felt a bit wrong to have the basis for your story to be a story that doesn't make sense.  Mikes brother....unless he was intentionally trying to hurt Mike, should never have said anything about Mike to the media...on the record or not.  And if he was not on great speaking terms with his brother for whatever reason...he likely was spouting an intentionally poor take without really knowing the facts.  I mean, if he was close to his brother....he would not have shared that opinion.

My point, is that perhaps you are being overly harsh to Mike Mussina based on a skeptical third hand story that shines a light on a bad situation in a way that makes it easier for us to accept.  That the best Oriole pitcher in Camden Yards history left us, in his prime, to go to the Yankees, because our owner is an idiot.

I have zero issues with anyone having any take they want on Mu$$ina. Our owner was egotistical and pretty much a tyrant towards everyone back then, but players don't ultimately play for the owners. They get PAID by the owners, they should play for their teammates, coaches, themselves and the fans.

At the end of the day, Mu$$ina never cared about a legacy, something very few players have an opportunity for and he turned it down because it was "easier" to be 3rd starter on a team full of mercenaries. 

That was his choice and can respect the man for making the choice he felt was best for himself. Not everyone likes to be the "guy". This is why some guys shrink up when closing or when the team considers them the ace. 

As a fan of the Orioles, I want nothing to do with a guy who walked away (ultimately he was offered the same amount of money) from an opportunity to leave a legacy in this game. Not a legacy for Angelos, but a legacy for himself, the team, and the fans.

He choose otherwise so to me, he's "dead to me" as an Oriole. I respect him as a pitcher, and I understand dealing with Angelos (though that should have been with his agent not him) back than was certainly awful, but he not only signed elsewhere, but he signed with our biggest Division rival at the time. 

At the end of the day, I'm ok if you think I'm being harsh and I have no opinion on his brother other than to say the person who told me that story had direct contact with him so I believe that's what he said. 

At this point, nothing is going to change my mind and I'm done trying change other people's minds. People want to cheer for a guy when he throws out first pitches when he's in the HoF with no team cap, that's their right. Just not for me.

[foxfield]

9 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

At this point, nothing is going to change my mind and I'm done trying change other people's minds. People want to cheer for a guy when he throws out first pitches when he's in the HoF with no team cap, that's their right. Just not for me.

One of the things that I like best about this site Tony is that you are approachable.  Someone you have never met can challenge or ask about why you think or feel a certain way.  Tip of the cap sir and thanks.

[NCRaven]

3 hours ago, DrungoHazewood said:

He would have eventually gone in, even if it took a while.  The HOF needs to come to a reckoning eventually, and figure out new standards for pitchers.  Or they'll end up in a place where they're still relying on old standards and no pitchers go in for years and years on end.

Look at someone like DeGrom.  Mussina had more value with the Orioles than DeGrom has had in his whole career so far and he's 34.  

If pitchers aren't that valuable in today's game, do today's pitchers belong in the Hall of Fame?  Ben Zobrist has more career bWAR than DeGrom (probably not for too much longer though).  So we're at the point where super utility guys have as much value as starting pitchers.

[DrungoHazewood]

48 minutes ago, NCRaven said:

If pitchers aren't that valuable in today's game, do today's pitchers belong in the Hall of Fame?  Ben Zobrist has more career bWAR than DeGrom (probably not for too much longer though).  So we're at the point where super utility guys have as much value as starting pitchers.

DeGrom is an unusual case in that he came up late and has been injured a lot.  And he doesn't have the massive innings/wins totals of someone like Koufax to get the traditional vote.

Pitchers like Kershaw, Verlander, Greinke, Scherzer, they'll go in easily.  It's DeGroms and Felix Hernandez who'll be harder sells.  They'll both probably end up with career value around Koufax, but in a modern context so for a long time there will be voters who stick to "didn't win 20 enough" or "shoulda thrown 275 innings a year or he's not a real man".

[GuidoSarducci]

7 hours ago, NCRaven said:

If pitchers aren't that valuable in today's game, do today's pitchers belong in the Hall of Fame?  Ben Zobrist has more career bWAR than DeGrom (probably not for too much longer though).  So we're at the point where super utility guys have as much value as starting pitchers.

deGrom might have a tough argument, if he started earlier or he can pitch  well into his late 30s the career numbers in addition to 2 CYAs might push him over the edge.

But I don't think its all about numbers.  Mariano Rivera has a career bWAR of 56 which is amonst the lowest of all HoFs in the modern era - usually you need over 60 usually 70.  But the postseason and being the closer on the Yankees for nearly 20 years - this is also the reason I think Madison Bumgarner is going to get in despite low WAR.  That run the Giants had 2010-2014.  Everyone knows that, and everyone who follows baseball knows about Bumgarner pitching heroics in games 1 and 4, then coming back for game 7 to earn a 5 inning save and win the series. 

[Can_of_corn]

11 hours ago, DrungoHazewood said:

He would have eventually gone in, even if it took a while.  The HOF needs to come to a reckoning eventually, and figure out new standards for pitchers.  Or they'll end up in a place where they're still relying on old standards and no pitchers go in for years and years on end.

Look at someone like DeGrom.  Mussina had more value with the Orioles than DeGrom has had in his whole career so far and he's 34.  Robbie Ray is 30, Mussina had more innings through age 26.

Even if Mussina only had 250 wins if he'd been a career Oriole, that's 53 more wins than Max Scherzer, who'll walk into the Hall first ballot even if he retired next year.

By the time that reckoning happens Mussina would have been off the ballot.

Would he have eventually been enshrined via the veteran's committee?  Yea, probably at some point.

[GuidoSarducci]

How about Rollie Fingers, career bWAR of 25 and is in the Hall,  didn't even have to wait that long (retired 1985, elected 1992)  https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/f/fingero01.shtml

He got Cy Young and MVP in 1981 with



wait for it





 28 saves !   

(ERA was 1.04 though .... )

[DrungoHazewood]

16 hours ago, Can_of_corn said:

By the time that reckoning happens Mussina would have been off the ballot.

Would he have eventually been enshrined via the veteran's committee?  Yea, probably at some point.

Jim Kaat just got in, and Mussina is very clearly a better pitcher.  So, yea, he'd have eventually gone in.  

Mussina ended up with 82 rWAR.  The next-highest eligible non-PED guy who isn't in the Hall is probably Rick Reuschel at 69.  Yea, Jim McCormick had 76 but he pitched 140 years ago mostly in the underhand, sidearm era.

[DrungoHazewood]

16 hours ago, GuidoSarducci said:

How about Rollie Fingers, career bWAR of 25 and is in the Hall,  didn't even have to wait that long (retired 1985, elected 1992)  https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/f/fingero01.shtml

He got Cy Young and MVP in 1981 with

wait for it

 28 saves !   

(ERA was 1.04 though .... )

The Hall voters don't really know what to do with relievers, so they just kind of randomly induct ones with decent stories.

The 70s and 80s were a weird time where relievers got probably outsized credit for their work.  Especially in years where there wasn't a dominant starter.  Remember 1989, when Mark Davis (1.85 ERA in 92 innings) won the Cy Young over guys like Orel Hershiser (2.31 ERA in 256 innings)?

Fingers wasn't actually a terrible Cy Young choice in '81.  It was a strike year with just over 100 games and he threw 71 innings to a 1.04.  His rWAR of 4.2 was only slightly behind Steve McCatty (who had just 91 Ks in 185 innings) and better than any other starter. He was 10th in overall WAR in the AL, so not really a justifiable MVP.  Should have gone to Rickey or Dewey Evans.

[Sports Guy]

 

[Sports Guy]

9 hours ago, Sports Guy said:

 

I don’t think the effects of the new wall and the humidor being used can be overstated.  What they have done for this team and pitching staff is huge.

[LookinUp]

2 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

I don’t think the effects of the new wall and the humidor being used can be overstated.  What they have done for this team and pitching staff is huge.

Elias with one of the most out of the box moves any GM has ever made, and it's based on math. 

He's not a normal GM. It's time to give him his due. Even his waiting on promotions now is because he's thinking beyond the now. It's definitely arguable, but I respect his long term approach. 10 good years are coming if he sticks around.