Moves in the near term

[Bemorewins]

1 minute ago, forphase1 said:

Oh, I'm not knocking him at all, don't get me wrong.  Nor can I name a single weakness that's been exposed in his game TO THIS POINT.  But again, he hasn't faced anything more than single A competition.  Hs's been phenomenal, and I'm super excited to see his progression.  I hope he is our starting SS come next year.  But I'm not ready to start carving his HOF bust quite yet.  

Let’s not go the hyperbole route with the HOF talk.

He did face some Major League pitching albeit in Spring Training and succeeded there. Though.

He’s a top of the draft 1:1 and will probably be the top prospect in the game by season’s end. The chances that he falls off or somehow stalls out in the next year with that type of talent are slim. 

[Os4days]

12 hours ago, Bemorewins said:

Wait… You want to give away Urias who won the GG last year? Or Frazier who has helped us win games this year? For nothing? Please help me understand the logic of this.

I can understand your frustrations with Mateo. I believe that his leash is getting much shorter. 

But if we jettison 2/3 Major League infielders for little to no compensation. What is your plan if the young players struggle and have to be sent back like Grayson? 

Also, could you foresee a scenario where Westburg and Ortiz struggle out of the gate for a while like Gunnar or worse? We would then be getting very little offense (even less than now) from our infield? Do you think that we could when at our current clip if that were to take place?

Lastly, if all of our prospects are brought up and the vets pushed aside, what would be your plan to acquire a serious starting pitching upgrade? Seeing as the vets could not bring back that kind of haul in a trade. Do you think starting pitching is not that big of a team need compared to possible slight improvement in offensive production?

Well said. I don’t understand how so many guys want to just unload guys for unproven talent (the new shiny toy mentality). Urias, Frazier and Mateo are not gonna be all stars but they have playing experience in the MAJORS and have all contributed to us having the third best record in baseball. Guys wanting to just drop them like yesterday is just ridiculous to me. As a fan you can want any transactions you want but sure glad we have a real baseball guy like Elias making those decisions. 

[forphase1]

4 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

Let’s not go the hyperbole route with the HOF talk.

He did face some Major League pitching albeit in Spring Training and succeeded there. Though.

He’s a top of the draft 1:1 and will probably be the top prospect in the game by season’s end. The chances that he falls off or somehow stalls out in the next year with that type of talent are slim. 

He did look good against better pitching in Spring Training, true.  But at the same time sure he was the 1:1 pick, but so was Mickey Moniak, Brady Aiken, Mark Appel, Bryan Bullington, etc, and they never amounted to anything in MLB, even with their high draft status.  Again, I too THINK and hope he will succeed and be a cornerstone of our team for years to come.  But I'm not willing anoint him as our opening day starter next year or even guarantee he'll be in the majors midway through the '24 season.  Again, for this conversation of Mateo versus Ortiz versus whoever, Holiday really shouldn't factor into the decision making plan as he's too far away (single A) to adequately be certain about how he projects and what he's going to be and when he's going to be it.  Sure, it would be great if Mateo can hold that down until Holiday is ready, but I'm not willing to jettison an Oritz who could improve the team immediately in the hopes that Holiday is the starter next season.  Mateo needs to perform or make Ortiz the starter.  We can deal with the Holiday issues when he's in AAA showing he's ready against better competition.

[Bemorewins]

7 hours ago, forphase1 said:

He did look good against better pitching in Spring Training, true.  But at the same time sure he was the 1:1 pick, but so was Mickey Moniak, Brady Aiken, Mark Appel, Bryan Bullington, etc, and they never amounted to anything in MLB, even with their high draft status.  Again, I too THINK and hope he will succeed and be a cornerstone of our team for years to come.  But I'm not willing anoint him as our opening day starter next year or even guarantee he'll be in the majors midway through the '24 season.  Again, for this conversation of Mateo versus Ortiz versus whoever, Holiday really shouldn't factor into the decision making plan as he's too far away (single A) to adequately be certain about how he projects and what he's going to be and when he's going to be it.  Sure, it would be great if Mateo can hold that down until Holiday is ready, but I'm not willing to jettison an Oritz who could improve the team immediately in the hopes that Holiday is the starter next season.  Mateo needs to perform or make Ortiz the starter.  We can deal with the Holiday issues when he's in AAA showing he's ready against better competition.

We can agree to disagree there. IMO - Holliday is not “far away”. If you have been following what he has been doing since he turned pro, those things can not be discounted or simpler dismissed as a “hot start”. He’s been doing things that few in the game have EVER done at that level. The only reason that he is in single A is because they are keeping him there. As I mentioned earlier, who do you know who can be ice cold for over a week and still carry a .350 BA and a OBP close to .480? That’s not simply some hotshot kid, that’s special, like extremely rare.

I don’t think that it would be wise to waste an asset for less than a year’s time. If the O’s want to keep Ortiz that’s fine. He can play 2B sometimes, spell Mateo at SS, and get some time at 3B when Gunnar is sat for a tough lefty (there are plenty of ABs to be had for someone like that). Or if they want to keep Westburg, that’s fine too. But my argument is that there is not enough room on the roster for Ortiz, Westburg AND Urias. IMO two need to be packaged in a trade and the other can fill the role that I mentioned above for the rest of this year. And then next year, that player can take over at 2B. As I believe Holliday will be at SS and Gunnar at 3B.

[Brooks The Great]

3 hours ago, Bemorewins said:

We can agree to disagree there. IMO - Holliday is not “far away”. If you have been following what he has been doing since he turned pro, those things can not be discounted or simpler dismissed as a “hot start”. He’s been doing things that few in the game have EVER done at that level. The only reason that he is in single A is because they are keeping him there. As I mentioned earlier, who do you know who can be ice cold for over a week and still carry a .350 BA and a OBP close to .480? That’s not simply some hotshot kid, that’s special, like extremely rare.

I don’t think that it would be wise to waste an asset for less than a year’s time. If the O’s want to keep Ortiz that’s fine. He can play 2B sometimes, spell Mateo at SS, and get some time at 3B when Gunnar is sat for a tough lefty (there are plenty of ABs to be had for someone like that). Or if they want to keep Westburg, that’s fine too. But my argument is that there is not enough room on the roster for Ortiz, Westburg AND Urias. IMO two need to be packaged in a trade and the other can fill the role that I mentioned above for the rest of this year. And then next year, that player can take over at 2B. As I believe Holliday will be at SS and Gunnar at 3B.

It's a no-brainer to deal Urias and keep Westburg and Ortiz. Westburg at 1B, Ortiz at 2B, Holliday at SS and Gunnar at 3B would be an awesome infield on both sides of the ball. Or perhaps Kjerstad/Mayo at 1B, Westburg at 2B, Holliday at short and Gunnar at 3B would work for more offensive upside.

Urias is a verstatile and valuable guy, but he's older and due to get more expensive much sooner than any of the prospects coming up. The organization also invested very little to originally acquire him, so dealing him away for whatever value the O's can extract is the best way to set the team up for sustained success with all the prospects currently in the minors.

[Bemorewins]

20 minutes ago, Brooks The Great said:

It's a no-brainer to deal Urias and keep Westburg and Ortiz. Westburg at 1B, Ortiz at 2B, Holliday at SS and Gunnar at 3B would be an awesome infield on both sides of the ball. Or perhaps Kjerstad/Mayo at 1B, Westburg at 2B, Holliday at short and Gunnar at 3B would work for more offensive upside.

Urias is a verstatile and valuable guy, but he's older and due to get more expensive much sooner than any of the prospects coming up. The organization also invested very little to originally acquire him, so dealing him away for whatever value the O's can extract is the best way to set the team up for sustained success with all the prospects currently in the minors.

You do know that Urias has nowhere near enough value to obtain a starting pitcher on his on? He would need to be a part of a package that includes some valued prospects for an impact starter. 

It sounds like you have the guys that you value in terms of prospects that you see as long term pieces. Of the prospects that we do posses which would you be willing to part with in order to acquire the type of pitching talent that we need and currently lack?

[MarCakes21]

29 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

You do know that Urias has nowhere near enough value to obtain a starting pitcher on his on? He would need to be a part of a package that includes some valued prospects for an impact starter. 

It sounds like you have the guys that you value in terms of prospects that you see as long term pieces. Of the prospects that we do posses which would you be willing to part with in order to acquire the type of pitching talent that we need and currently lack?

Depends what SP.  I could argue that he could acquire something like an expiring contract of Giolito or Flahrety.  If you're trying to get Burnes or even Bieber, yea then not enough.  You have to match up right too for an in season move.I

[Bemorewins]

I'm not very high on Giolito. How much better does he really make us? I would prefer to have a starter who can truly match up with the McClanahans, Coles, deGroms, Ryans, etc of the world. Otherwise, I think we are a long shot at best to win 1 round let alone 3. 

In addition, he's an FA at the end of the year so he does nothing to help us solve this problem next year. If we are going to make a trade I would prefer that we don't try to address the gaping hole with a small bandaid, because despite our rich org prospect depth and talent, we don't have the pitching to project to have a talent edge on our competitors next year or beyond.

I guess the same thing that applies to Giolito applies to Flahrety and Montgomery from STL IMO. They are not really tangibly better than what we have. I don't want any of those guys as my game 1/7 starter. 

With the reserve/over abundance of org talent that we currently posses, I would prefer to fish for the cream of the crop as opposed to closer to the bottom of the barrel. IMO there's no reason to go cheap now in terms of what we are willing to give up to get the true difference making piece for the next few years. 

[Brooks The Great]

2 hours ago, Bemorewins said:

You do know that Urias has nowhere near enough value to obtain a starting pitcher on his on? He would need to be a part of a package that includes some valued prospects for an impact starter. 

It sounds like you have the guys that you value in terms of prospects that you see as long term pieces. Of the prospects that we do posses which would you be willing to part with in order to acquire the type of pitching talent that we need and currently lack?

I never said that Urias can bring back a starting pitcher on his own. Not sure why you ask that question leading off your post.

If you're simply stating that Urias only makes sense to trade if he brings back a starting pitcher, I totally disagree with that. And yes, I do know that Urias doesn't have enough value to bring back a starting pitcher. But I have no idea why you'd lead off a response with that kind of question, though. It's not applicable to what I said.

I also disagree that Urias would need to be part of a package. He may be part of a package, but he can be traded on his own as well. 

I simply said the Orioles need to trade Urias. I have full faith that Elias would get decent value for him. And it doesn't necessarily need to be pitching, although there's a good chance Elias would try to land pitching in return. And there's added value in opening up playing time for Ortiz and Westburg that a Urias trade would make possible as well.

To answer your other question, I'd trade Norby, Prieto, Hall, and Stowers. But I'd trade Urias, Mateo, and Santander first. I'd trade Mountcastle too, but he might have the least perceived value to other teams of any of those guys.

[Bemorewins]

3 minutes ago, Brooks The Great said:

I never said that Urias can bring back a starting pitcher on his own. Not sure why you ask that question leading off your post.

If you're simply stating that Urias only makes sense to trade if he brings back a starting pitcher, I totally disagree with that. And yes, I do know that Urias doesn't have enough value to bring back a starting pitcher. But I have no idea why you'd lead off a response with that kind of question, though. It's not applicable to what I said.

I also disagree that Urias would need to be part of a package. He may be part of a package, but he can be traded on his own as well. 

I simply said the Orioles need to trade Urias. I have full faith that Elias would get decent value for him. And it doesn't necessarily need to be pitching, although there's a good chance Elias would try to land pitching in return. And there's added value in opening up playing time for Ortiz and Westburg that a Urias trade would make possible as well.

To answer your other question, I'd trade Norby, Prieto, Hall, and Stowers. But I'd trade Urias, Mateo, and Santander first. I'd trade Mountcastle too, but he might have the least perceived value to other teams of any of those guys.

To a team selling what would they want in Urias being a piece in and of himself or for him being a primary piece of a deal? He is a nice complementary player. He's 29 years old with I believe 4 more years on his contract. I'm not sure how much value that holds to a rebuilding team.

If we are not trading for pitching, I'm not sure we should be making a trade? You say to open up a spot for Westburg and Ortiz, that's fine if that's what you believe in. I don't believe that is wise or necessary. I believe that we should be trading the players from our overcrowded infield stock of talent who can retrieve the most value in return in terms of a starter. Since an impact starting is our greatest and most glaring need IMO.

Of those players mentioned in your last statement, I'm not sure that any has that much trade value. I mean if you were another team, you might see something there in Norby. But I am not high on Hall, given his age and lack of AAA success/dominance to this part. And Prieto and Stowers are more throw in players than they are coveted pieces. I don't see much there even if you included all 4 together.

The same thing applies to Mateo, who's going to look at him and say that's the guy that I want. What rebuilding team is really coveting him. Same for Santander with only 1 and a half years remaining until FA. The difference is that Santander is actually a pretty decent hitter and is valuable to us as a switch hitting MOB. I'm not a believer in that a rookie can come in and instantly give us his production. And I don't want this season to be another rebuilding season where we are not maximizing our current odds for success. IMO we are well beyond the rebuilding phase and looking to get rid of good players. We should be trying to acquire them in the form of pitching (hopefully both starting and relief).

[Brooks The Great]

2 hours ago, Bemorewins said:

To a team selling what would they want in Urias being a piece in and of himself or for him being a primary piece of a deal? He is a nice complementary player. He's 29 years old with I believe 4 more years on his contract. I'm not sure how much value that holds to a rebuilding team.

If we are not trading for pitching, I'm not sure we should be making a trade? You say to open up a spot for Westburg and Ortiz, that's fine if that's what you believe in. I don't believe that is wise or necessary. I believe that we should be trading the players from our overcrowded infield stock of talent who can retrieve the most value in return in terms of a starter. Since an impact starting is our greatest and most glaring need IMO.

Of those players mentioned in your last statement, I'm not sure that any has that much trade value. I mean if you were another team, you might see something there in Norby. But I am not high on Hall, given his age and lack of AAA success/dominance to this part. And Prieto and Stowers are more throw in players than they are coveted pieces. I don't see much there even if you included all 4 together.

The same thing applies to Mateo, who's going to look at him and say that's the guy that I want. What rebuilding team is really coveting him. Same for Santander with only 1 and a half years remaining until FA. The difference is that Santander is actually a pretty decent hitter and is valuable to us as a switch hitting MOB. I'm not a believer in that a rookie can come in and instantly give us his production. And I don't want this season to be another rebuilding season where we are not maximizing our current odds for success. IMO we are well beyond the rebuilding phase and looking to get rid of good players. We should be trying to acquire them in the form of pitching (hopefully both starting and relief).

There are contending teams who could use a guy like Urias as a starter at an infield position, or as a utility guy. The Dodgers were in bad shape once Gavin Lux got hurt, and they still might need an infielder at the deadline. Other players on other teams will get hurt, and there will be a need for a player like Urias. Worse players than Urias have been traded at the deadline for good returns. Gerardo Parra is just one of many examples.

I think we could get a couple of Single A arms for Urias, or a hitting prospect and pitching prospect at the lower levels. Or maybe a AAA arm that profiles as a reliever who can contribute in the short-term could be part of a package.

Urias should be traded. He doesn't fit the long-term plans of the team, he's frequently injured, and guys like Westburg and Ortiz could very likely be more productive than him, or at least provide similar production. Like I said, no-brainer to trade Urias.

Santander should be traded as well if the return is right. Pitching would be ideal, but once again, I trust Elias to make a smart trade. But this thread is about Urias, so I won't go too much into other players. With that said, I think there are other teams who would value DL Hall as a secondary piece in a deal. Not every team has a great GM making decisions and evaluating talent, and just because you don't think Hall has trade value, doesn't mean that another team doesn't value him.

[Bemorewins]

1 hour ago, Brooks The Great said:

There are contending teams who could use a guy like Urias as a starter at an infield position, or as a utility guy. The Dodgers were in bad shape once Gavin Lux got hurt, and they still might need an infielder at the deadline. Other players on other teams will get hurt, and there will be a need for a player like Urias. Worse players than Urias have been traded at the deadline for good returns. Gerardo Parra is just one of many examples.

I think we could get a couple of Single A arms for Urias, or a hitting prospect and pitching prospect at the lower levels. Or maybe a AAA arm that profiles as a reliever who can contribute in the short-term could be part of a package.

Urias should be traded. He doesn't fit the long-term plans of the team, he's frequently injured, and guys like Westburg and Ortiz could very likely be more productive than him, or at least provide similar production. Like I said, no-brainer to trade Urias.

Santander should be traded as well if the return is right. Pitching would be ideal, but once again, I trust Elias to make a smart trade. But this thread is about Urias, so I won't go too much into other players. With that said, I think there are other teams who would value DL Hall as a secondary piece in a deal. Not every team has a great GM making decisions and evaluating talent, and just because you don't think Hall has trade value, doesn't mean that another team doesn't value him.

I hope things work out as you say and hope and that we can fleece teams in deals by rereading spare/unneeded parts (except Santander who I don’t want traded this season). 

However, I’m not expecting that there are a bunch of gullible teams out there waiting to be duped.

[Can_of_corn]

9 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

I hope things work out as you say and hope and that we can fleece teams in deals by rereading spare/unneeded parts (except Santander who I don’t want traded this season). 

However, I’m not expecting that there are a bunch of gullible teams out there waiting to be duped.

I don't get this fleece teams bit.

You don't need to "win" trades or "fleece" anyone.  The O's can trade value for value.

[Hank Scorpio]

To me, guys like Urias and Mateo can be dealt for guys that are a few years away. 

Santander would probably be the one guy I'm more inclined to keep & DH in spite of his likely absence from next year's team.  He's generally effective from both sides of the plate and provides offense we'd miss without him. If his inclusion in a deal would result in an impactful starting pitcher, I'd likely do it. 

[Bemorewins]

5 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

I don't get this fleece teams bit.

You don't need to "win" trades or "fleece" anyone.  The O's can trade value for value.

That’s what I have been saying. But some posters don’t see it that way. They don’t want to part with any talent except for our scraps like Urias. Or believe Norby and Prieto and Hall can get us an ace.

I get it though, some posters are in love with any prospect that wears orange and black. There’s even a believes that our rotation is better than any other in the AL.