This triple by Gunnar

[Can_of_corn]

Just now, Malike said:

I think it's going to take some time but we're already seeing the impact of having a 2B with poor range and how it now affects the game. You can't hide guys like Frazier anymore at 2B without the shift to back him up.

They "hid" them there for decades before they started shifting.

[Malike]

Just now, Can_of_corn said:

They "hid" them there for decades before they started shifting.

I mean, being strong up the middle is every team's dream, 2B is a part of that and the teams that have had superior fielding 2B have a big advantage up the middle. I haven't checked in a while but the positional value at 2B for fWAR and rWAR are +2.5 - +2.5 and at third they were +2.5 and +2 respectively. 

[RZNJ]

20 minutes ago, eddie83 said:

It’s illogical that’s why. He would not be the top prospect in the sport if he wasn’t capable of playing SS. 
 

You don’t move someone off a position they can handle to play an inferior position. A LT in football doesn’t get moved to G. 

I never said he was incapable of playing SS.  He may very well be above average defensively.   He might move to another position because Henderson is better.   I think what I’m seeing is backed up by the numbers which are going to show a 2022 Mateo level of defense being played by Henderson this year.

I think Henderson is the O’s SS for the next 5 years.   We’ll see.

[SilverRocket]

36 minutes ago, eddie83 said:

2B does not have the same value as SS or 3rd. You have to know this.

Fangraphs treats 2B and 3B as equivalent (both +2.5): https://library.fangraphs.com/misc/war/positional-adjustment/

BBRef treats 2B at +3.0 and 3B at +2.0, so 2B is slightly more important: https://www.baseball-reference.com/about/war_explained_position.shtml

SS is more important by a lot, but 2nd and 3rd are roughly equivalent and just use slightly different skillsets (2B values range, 3B values reaction and arm). SS is a lot more valuable than 3B.

[eddie83]

19 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

Yes. Because of what he did with the bat, especially in the clutch and in the postseason. 

I’m not on one side of or the other of this argument. But there are Hall of Famers who were 2B. 

IF and that is a very big if, Jackson Holliday could be of that kind/caliber at 2B, I don’t think anyone would oppose that including himself, his dad, and Boras.

Speaking of I’m sure his dad and Boras had zero discussions with the Orioles prior to the draft about his position. 

[eddie83]

18 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

I disagree with the football analogy used here. 

I’m not sure if you are a Ravens fan or not. But Marshall Yanda could have been and at times (like the 2014 playoffs) proved that he was at the very least a capable LT. But at G he was otherworldly and a future Hall of Famer.

I’m am a Ravens fan. 

[eddie83]

2 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

I never said he was incapable of playing SS.  He may very well be above average defensively.   He might move to another position because Henderson is better.   I think what I’m seeing is backed up by the numbers which are going to show a 2022 Mateo level of defense being played by Henderson this year.

I think Henderson is the O’s SS for the next 5 years.   We’ll see.

I’m not down on Gunnar’s glove. He is playing great. I know we had Schoop but Gunnar at 2nd would be a waste of an arm. 
 

The only way this whole conversation would even have a chance of playing  out would be if the Orioles thought that Ortiz was as good as Belanger with the glove. 

[Oriole1940]

And happiness is  not knowing the outcome of last nights game until literally moments  ago due to a Drecho hitting here about game time yesterday knocking out everything until moments ago.  Thankful still alive and also that things are getting back to normal here.  Go Orioles.  Much cleanup to do, so I will sign off now.   

[deward]

3 minutes ago, eddie83 said:

Speaking of I’m sure his dad and Boras had zero discussions with the Orioles prior to the draft about his position. 

Boras and Matt Holliday don't get to make decisions about what is best for the O's. If the O's feel like their optimal alignment is to put Holliday at 2b, CF, C, or batboy, then Holliday has to suck it up and deal with for at least six years. He's already been getting some time at 2b in the minors, I saw an interview somewhere saying that he liked 2b and was happy to do whatever helps the team. I don't see the problem if that's where he ends up.

[eddie83]

6 minutes ago, SilverRocket said:

Fangraphs treats 2B and 3B as equivalent (both +2.5): https://library.fangraphs.com/misc/war/positional-adjustment/

BBRef treats 2B at +3.0 and 3B at +2.0, so 2B is slightly more important: https://www.baseball-reference.com/about/war_explained_position.shtml

SS is more important by a lot, but 2nd and 3rd are roughly equivalent and just use slightly different skillsets (2B values range, 3B values reaction and arm). SS is a lot more valuable than 3B.

Ok. Good to know. 
 

I still think my overall argument stands here which is neither Gunnar nor Holliday will be playing on the right side. 

[eddie83]

Just now, deward said:

Boras and Matt Holliday don't get to make decisions about what is best for the O's. If the O's feel like their optimal alignment is to put Holliday at 2b, CF, C, or batboy, then Holliday has to suck it up and deal with for at least six years. He's already been getting some time at 2b in the minors, I saw an interview somewhere saying that he liked 2b and was happy to do whatever helps the team. I don't see the problem if that's where he ends up.

If you think those type of conversations didn’t happen before he was picked I honestly don’t know what to tell you. 

[RZNJ]

1 minute ago, eddie83 said:

I’m not down on Gunnar’s glove. He is playing great. I know we had Schoop but Gunnar at 2nd would be a waste of an arm. 
 

The only way this whole conversation would even have a chance of playing  out would be if the Orioles thought that Ortiz was as good as Belanger with the glove. 

I can’t see Gunnar at 2B either.   I could see Holliday there.  

[eddie83]

Just now, RZNJ said:

I can’t see Gunnar at 2B either.   I could see Holliday there.  

Well I’m going to Bowie tonight. Maybe he will be at 2nd…

 

He better be playing!!!

[RZNJ]

2 minutes ago, eddie83 said:

Ok. Good to know. 
 

I still think my overall argument stands here which is neither Gunnar nor Holliday will be playing on the right side. 

I don’t think it’s nearly a lock that Holliday couldn’t be the future 2B.    I don’t think your argument against it is persuasive at all.

[RZNJ]

3 minutes ago, eddie83 said:

If you think those type of conversations didn’t happen before he was picked I honestly don’t know what to tell you. 

If they told him that they believed he could be the starting SS for the team one day, I could believe that.  If they promised him they would never move him to another position or that he was guaranteed the position some day I would have a good laugh.  The kid and his father have been in and around the game all of their lives.   They get it.