Can We Talk About Next Year Now?

[Bemorewins]

2 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Santander is a good player but highly overrated on this board by some. He has been an above average hitter the last 2 years but he’s not some lynch pin that can’t be replaced.

On top of that, he is going to make a big chunk of money next year and it is his last year. With all the young talent this team has in the OF and 1st/DH areas, it’s hard to envision him having a long term future here.

 

I respect you very much as a long time veteran of this board and you have made your thoughts very clear on Santander. I've heard you say that you feel that Cowser can replace him. I didn't see it but I could be WAY WRONG.

I don't believe that Santander is great our even an allstar level player. But he is one of the only reliable power hitters that we currently have. If we can replace him with someone better than so be it. But I don't want to see us continue to go along the pay of going for the cheapest option possible (trading him to replace with an unknown quantity just to go younger and cheaper). 

IMO we saw this season the zenith of the go cheap at all cost approach, none of the players we brought in (Irvin, Gibson, Flaherty, Fuji, Webb, O'Hearn) except for Hicks ended making any difference in the post season. I just don't see a realistic path to a title given the competition that we have to beat (HOU, LAD, TEX, ATL, TAM, etc.) without building a roster that can compete with their talent. I don't think we can continue to bring a knife to the post season gun fight.

[Finisher]

25 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

John Angelos can most certainly afford to take the payroll up 35- 50 million which is about what it's going to take.

What he can do and what he wants to do are two different things. I think it's obvious he cares more about money.

Look, we obviously needed to add a TOR last offseason and they cheaped out. It's pretty clear cut at this point, sign or acquire a TOR or you're not serious about truly contending.

[Bemorewins]

Just now, Finisher said:

What he can do and what he wants to do are two different things. I think it's obvious he cares more about money.

Look, we obviously needed to add a TOR last offseason and they cheaped out. It's pretty clear cut at this point, sign or acquire a TOR or you're not serious about truly contending.

I agree completely. It's time to poop or get off of the pot because we are not going to win a World Series as is. If we go the cheap/waiver wire approach again this offseason it will say all I need to hear regardless of how Elias may try to dress it up. Talk is cheap, action is what matters.

[baltfan]

22 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Santander is a good player but highly overrated on this board by some. He has been an above average hitter the last 2 years but he’s not some lynch pin that can’t be replaced.

On top of that, he is going to make a big chunk of money next year and it is his last year. With all the young talent this team has in the OF and 1st/DH areas, it’s hard to envision him having a long term future here.

 

He doesn't have a future, but he could be a key part of them contending next year while young guys continue to develop.  I see no harm in not moving him if you don't get a good offer for him.  I do think they need to move at least one of Hays, Mounty, or Santander.  

[baltfan]

8 minutes ago, Finisher said:

What he can do and what he wants to do are two different things. I think it's obvious he cares more about money.

Look, we obviously needed to add a TOR last offseason and they cheaped out. It's pretty clear cut at this point, sign or acquire a TOR or you're not serious about truly contending.

He doesn't care more about money, he just doesn't have as much as most owners.  This team is his source of income.  He isn't like many other owners.  If he takes a loss or breaks even, he really feels it.  

[Sports Guy]

18 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

I respect you very much as a long time veteran of this board and you have made your thoughts very clear on Santander. I've heard you say that you feel that Cowser can replace him. I didn't see it but I could be WAY WRONG.

I don't believe that Santander is great our even an allstar level player. But he is one of the only reliable power hitters that we currently have. If we can replace him with someone better than so be it. But I don't want to see us continue to go along the pay of going for the cheapest option possible (trading him to replace with an unknown quantity just to go younger and cheaper). 

IMO we saw this season the zenith of the go cheap at all cost approach, none of the players we brought in (Irvin, Gibson, Flaherty, Fuji, Webb, O'Hearn) except for Hicks ended making any difference in the post season. I just don't see a realistic path to a title given the competition that we have to beat (HOU, LAD, TEX, ATL, TAM, etc.) without building a roster that can compete with their talent. I don't think we can continue to bring a knife to the post season gun fight.

Well first of all, it doesn’t have to be Cowser that replaces him. There are lots of options and it depends on many factors.

We will have as much if not more positional talent than any team in the league. The issue I have is that it’s tough to solely rely on that talent. Teams aren’t usually 100% built from within and I don’t think it’s realistic to think we will be either.

That being said, there isn’t really anything in FA either (positional talent wise).

I have said I would push for Luis Robert. I think there is a deal there to be done without giving up Basallo, Kjerstad, Mayo or Holliday.

We have plenty of other options to make that move while keeping those guys.

That would be my first phone call if I were Elias.  And then you go from there.

[tntoriole]

1 hour ago, Bemorewins said:

That is what they have consistently done under Elias/John Angelos. However, didn't we just see the ceiling of that approach? Like I can't see anybody looking at this series and saying, "let's just rinse and repeat". We were totally outclassed in this series and they didn't have their 2 best starters. We only had the lead for ONE SINGLE INNING in the entire series. To me, that screams we need to get better and significantly increase our talent in order to win on this level.

Yes, well it screamed after 2014 too .. and they added ? Who exactly? 
And who owned the team then? 
 

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2015/03/offseason-in-review-baltimore-orioles-6.html

 

The board will work itself up every winter as always .. and complain about the inactivity as always.. and bemoan our lack of signings etc .. I have seen this winter play far too many times .. I will wait till Opening Day 

Edited October 11, 2023 by tntoriole

[SilentJames]

36 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Santander is a good player but highly overrated on this board by some. He has been an above average hitter the last 2 years but he’s not some lynch pin that can’t be replaced.

On top of that, he is going to make a big chunk of money next year and it is his last year. With all the young talent this team has in the OF and 1st/DH areas, it’s hard to envision him having a long term future here.

 

I think Kjerstad can be Santander, eventually. Santander falls into that weird liminal zone of "pretty good, but not great, but not a liability either," Cowser looked really overmatched for his cup of coffee, that is just my eyes and he wouldnt be the first guy to have that happen to him but going into spring I think Cowser needs to put on a show to make the team. 

To Santander, what would he likely bring back in a trade? a couple minor league arms and some ML-level bullpen help? Is that worth it? I don't really know at this point. I think we need to have discussions regarding Hayes (whom I see Cowser "replacing,"). Mullins defense and offensive potential are enough to extend him until Bradfield grows through the minors. 

Santander might/ could get moved at the deadline if Kjerstad/ Cowser solidify their roles on the team. But I would tend to hold onto him for now. 

[Sports Guy]

The payroll is just going to be low for a while. Even if they spent in FA, the payroll will still be low.

I don’t really care about the payroll number as much as I care about them fielding a better team. All these kids are making nothing for the next several years. Put some more talent around them.

[Sports Guy]

2 minutes ago, SilentJames said:

I think Kjerstad can be Santander, eventually. Santander falls into that weird liminal zone of "pretty good, but not great, but not a liability either," Cowser looked really overmatched for his cup of coffee, that is just my eyes and he wouldnt be the first guy to have that happen to him but going into spring I think Cowser needs to put on a show to make the team. 

To Santander, what would he likely bring back in a trade? a couple minor league arms and some ML-level bullpen help? Is that worth it? I don't really know at this point. I think we need to have discussions regarding Hayes (whom I see Cowser "replacing,"). Mullins defense and offensive potential are enough to extend him until Bradfield grows through the minors. 

Santander might/ could get moved at the deadline if Kjerstad/ Cowser solidify their roles on the team. But I would tend to hold onto him for now. 

I would hope that Santander can help bring back 1-2 arms that could be key for the pen. Doesn’t have to be the only thing he brings back.

I question if he can bring back a top 100 guy but I think he could bring back some valuable prospects.

[O'sFanThruJune]

22 minutes ago, baltfan said:

He doesn't care more about money, he just doesn't have as much as most owners.  This team is his source of income.  He isn't like many other owners.  If he takes a loss or breaks even, he really feels it.  

Then he should sell the team for a billion dollars and never have to worry about money again.

[RZNJ]

Santander has one year left and he has proven he can handle 1B in a pinch.   Maybe he brings back a pretty good setup man like Teoscar Hernandez did last year but it’s more likely that he’s the perfect hedge bet .   Santander can play RF/1B/DH while Kjerstad and perhaps Cowser get settled in.  He’s a security blanket next year.  

[Can_of_corn]

32 minutes ago, baltfan said:

He doesn't care more about money, he just doesn't have as much as most owners.  This team is his source of income.  He isn't like many other owners.  If he takes a loss or breaks even, he really feels it.  

So what did he do with the tens of millions he siphoned off the team during the rebuild?

 

Also they have MASN as a second source of income but have apparently done a very poor job with it.

Edited October 11, 2023 by Can_of_corn

[ExileAngelos]

6 hours ago, Yossarian said:

I think we need to move Hays, Mullins, Urias, Mateo, Frazier, and Hicks.  From the little I've seen of them, I don't think Cowser or Westburg are going to provide enough pop with the bat.  We need production from center field, left field, and especially third base.   If we move Henderson to SS, we need some offense at those 3 positions. 

Especially third base?  Huh?  Gunnar at third and Holliday at shortstop in need of an upgrade? 

[Bemorewins]

22 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Well first of all, it doesn’t have to be Cowser that replaces him. There are lots of options and it depends on many factors.

We will have as much if not more positional talent than any team in the league. The issue I have is that it’s tough to solely rely on that talent. Teams aren’t usually 100% built from within and I don’t think it’s realistic to think we will be either.

That being said, there isn’t really anything in FA either (positional talent wise).

I have said I would push for Luis Robert. I think there is a deal there to be done without giving up Basallo, Kjerstad, Mayo or Holliday.

We have plenty of other options to make that move while keeping those guys.

That would be my first phone call if I were Elias.  And then you go from there.

I'm all in on a Robert acqusition through trade as long as that also comes with a frontline starter being acquired through FA. If we can add to the middle of the order from outside of the org combined with whatever increase we get from Holliday taking over a middle of the INF spot, plus surplus from a Kjerstad and/or Mayo, in addition to adding an experienced good veteran pitcher; then I think that we have given ourselves the best chance to go deep in October.

Bottom line is IMO we are going to have to improve upon the team that we have now if we don't want next season to end like this one because IMO we were outclassed against TEX (without their 2 best starting pitchers).