Cease vs everyone else

[Frobby]

6 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Good post.  You are a good dude Frobby and I appreciate the cordial & insightful interaction.

Happy to do it.  I find it very informative when knowledgeable posters who root for other teams pop on here with their views.  It’s easy to get myopia when you only talk with fans of your own team.  

[RZNJ]

13 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Some kind of personal scale?  I’m saying there are 80 or so prospects that I’d prefer over him based on how I value prospects. And where am I saying that you should go with my self evaluation?  I’m only sharing my personal opinion.  You too should form your own opinion.  I’m quite confused by your hostility and aggressiveness.

Also, when publications rank prospects what is their criteria for ordering them?  How do they account for ceiling vs. floor, age, positional scarcity, etc?  You seem to imply there is one set of guidelines they all go by.  If you can help explain, I’d love to better understand how they adjust for age vs. how I do.

Law (36). MLB(50). BA (63).  Chicago White Sox (80-100).

I would love to see your top 100 list.  When does it come out?

[zweem]

Would Chicage White Sox take Westburg and Cowser instead???  I think  Ortiz will be a better offensive player to Westburg if given a chance because of the contact skills---less HR power but better OPS.

[RZNJ]

Just another man’s opinion.

Szymborski: ITS CLOBBERING TIME

12:00

striker: Being an Orioles fan and play analyst, who would you be willing to give up in a Cease deal? Would a Cease + Jimenez deal interest you?

12:01

 Dan Szymborski: Jimenez no

12:03

 Dan Szymborski: Cease, I’d do something with Westburg as the center (I like Westburg). But I wouldn’t go Westburg AND Mayo

[RZNJ]

striker: Westburg, Kjerstad and Povich. Who says no?

12:34

 Dan Szymborski: O’s hopefully. I wouldn’t give up Westburg AND Kjerstad

[Roll Tide]

3 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Fully agree.  I see Ortiz as a guy who is probably somewhat divisive in terms of front office evaluation.  I’m sure we all agree he’s a quality prospect, but I’ve read differing scouting reports on what his offensive ceiling really is.  And I just don’t buy that he’s a guy who could put up .800 OPS’s in the majors.  Maybe he proves me wrong, but I still maintain a more realistic ceiling is league average hitter.  And with his glove that’s valuable…if that outcome actually happens.  Again, he could end being a plus glove 70 wRC+ hitter and be someone you are constantly looking to upgrade from.  That’s the risk vs. reward dilemma that comes with prospects and why they aren’t worth as much as many fans realize.

And Cease could give you 2 years of his average of 4 to 4.5 ERA. See what I did? You can argue the other stats put at some point you have to consistently do it. Right now he’s a 1 season wonder.

[Roll Tide]

3 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

I called out the one line because it was summarizing him overall as a prospect and it downplayed his potential impact (which is somewhat concerning).  That being said, I can’t say enough that I like Joey Ortiz as a prospect and that I’d love to have him in a Cease trade.  I just don’t view him quite as high as publications & many here do and therefore would not accept him as a centerpiece.  That’s all I have been arguing this whole time.

But again, when discussing risk, we’re talking about an established major league starter vs. a prospect.  Prospects in nature are unsure things and outcomes can vary greatly.  Nothing wrong with highlighting the risks of Cease, but it’s a stretch treat those as the same as concerns with an unproven prospect.

So yes ….hes a MLB starter. But you want ACE return. He’s more likely to be a mid rotation starter with a 4-4.5 starter. And you want a return of 2 top 100 prospects plus. 

[Roll Tide]

1 hour ago, zweem said:

Would Chicage White Sox take Westburg and Cowser instead???  I think  Ortiz will be a better offensive player to Westburg if given a chance because of the contact skills---less HR power but better OPS.

Sure  they would but aren’t getting that either. 

[24fps]

3 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Yes, that would still be my proposal.

I continue to think that's a sensible real-world expectation and the White Sox are an ideal match for the O's at this particular moment.  Granted Ortiz is not going to hit a ton of home runs, but I also think you're significantly underestimating him nonetheless.

[dystopia]

30 minutes ago, 24fps said:

I continue to think that's a sensible real-world expectation and the White Sox are an ideal match for the O's at this particular moment.  Granted Ortiz is not going to hit a ton of home runs, but I also think you're significantly underestimating him nonetheless.

He's actually pretty reasonable all things considered. See a lot of Sox fans on Twitter who still think they'll get Holliday. 

[Roll Tide]

1 hour ago, RZNJ said:

striker: Westburg, Kjerstad and Povich. Who says no?

12:34

 Dan Szymborski: O’s hopefully. I wouldn’t give up Westburg AND Kjerstad

Me !

[RZNJ]

18 minutes ago, Roll Tide said:

Me !

I was pleasantly surprised that not every writer thinks it should take a “monster package”.  Of course, that’s subjective.  I will be very surprised if Elias includes 2 of our top 7-8 prospects.  That might mean he misses out but that’s okay.   Can’t wait until this is over.  Lol

[Roll Tide]

34 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

I was pleasantly surprised that not every writer thinks it should take a “monster package”.  Of course, that’s subjective.  I will be very surprised if Elias includes 2 of our top 7-8 prospects.  That might mean he misses out but that’s okay.   Can’t wait until this is over.  Lol

Me too ….Give 1 top 100 guy and a couple other for Burnes. 

Edited December 3, 2023 by Roll Tide

[Pickles]

19 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

I was pleasantly surprised that not every writer thinks it should take a “monster package”.  Of course, that’s subjective.  I will be very surprised if Elias includes 2 of our top 7-8 prospects.  That might mean he misses out but that’s okay.   Can’t wait until this is over.  Lol

The top three are untouchable. They can have one of Cowser, Kjerstad, Ortiz, and Westburg if you want to count him as a prospect.  And then some lesser pieces.

Or they can go get a bunch of 19 year old pitchers and piss off because they're starting to annoy me. 

[Roll Tide]

8 minutes ago, Pickles said:

The top three are untouchable. They can have one of Cowser, Kjerstad, Ortiz, and Westburg if you want to count him as a prospect.  And then some lesser pieces.

Or they can go get a bunch of 19 year old pitchers and piss off because they're starting to annoy me. 

Well he wants Ortiz as the second piece