Sonny Gray to St Louis

[TopGunnar]

1 hour ago, OsFanSinceThe80s said:

That's pretty much my take unless John Angelos decides to open up his wallet and that is doubtful without a new lease deal officially signed yet. Best bet is to make a trade for a player under contract at this point and Elias is going to have to trade some prospects or players soon with the coming logjam of MLB ready talent. 

I agree, and with our prospect pool there’s no excuse not to make a deal

[oriole]

33 minutes ago, sportsfan8703 said:

Winning 100 games was fun last year. That was without Means and a rookie Grayson. We’ll be alright. The time for us to add a SP is a rental at the deadline if need be. 

I couldn’t disagree more. Means is coming off an injury and Rodriguez is coming off a season where he was just as terrible as he was good…meaning there’s no telling what we’ll see next year. I feel good about them, but you absolutely cannot count on them without adding at least one more proven and consistent starter, preferably two more. 
 

It should be a top starter from FA or trade but it won’t be. A Flaherty/Giolito type is probably what we’re looking at if we’re lucky. 

Edited November 27, 2023 by oriole

[RZNJ]

4 minutes ago, oriole said:

I couldn’t disagree more. Means is coming off an injury and Rodriguez is coming off a season where he was just as terrible as he was good…meaning there’s no telling what we’ll see next year. I feel good about them, but you absolutely cannot count on them without adding at least one more proven and consistent starter, preferably two more. 
 

It should be a top starter from FA or trade but it won’t be. A Flaherty/Giolito type is probably what we’re looking at if we’re lucky. 

You feel good about GRod and Means but we absolutely cannot count on them.  Got it.

[jamalshw]

5 minutes ago, oriole said:

I couldn’t disagree more. Means is coming off an injury and Rodriguez is coming off a season where he was just as terrible as he was good…meaning there’s no telling what we’ll see next year. I feel good about them, but you absolutely cannot count on them without adding at least one more proven and consistent starter, preferably two more. 
 

It should be a top starter from FA or trade but it won’t be. A Flaherty/Giolito type is probably what we’re looking at if we’re lucky. 

I still have hopes that it'll be a level above Flaherty/Giolito. I really wanted Gray and the 3/$75M deal would have been a good one, but who's to say he wanted to come to Baltimore. My focus now is E-Rod. Adding a second lefty to the rotation makes sense, too. 

Add E-Rod to the Bradish, Grayson, Means, and Kremer foursome and that's a solid rotation with some insurance in the likes of Wells, Irvin, Hall, etc. Then, use the prospect capital to add a big reliever. 

[jabba72]

Gray at 34 years of age just seems too old for me to have liked the O's to go 3-75. I actually would prefer Giolito to him. And Giolito pitched 188 innings last year. 

[Sanity Check]

3 hours ago, oriole said:

I seem to be in the minority but I’m not too upset he didn’t end up here. Generally, it seems like a bad idea to go after pitchers in their mid-thirties who just came off one of the best seasons of their career. At least, in terms of what kind of value will you get. The O’s obviously shop for hidden value, ex. Gibson, Irvin. I bet Gray won’t have a season as good as 2023 again. 

This kind of plays into Elias's philosophy of signing pitchers to one-year deals who will be pitching for their next big contract.  The problem I have with multi-year deals is that they are guaranteed, no matter how the player performs early in the contract, and I'm almost certain some pitchers don't work as hard to prepare for the first seasons in their deals as much as they do for that last season.   I won't say that every pitcher/player is like that, but I do think some are.  See: Carlos Rodon.  (and yes, some might say he wasn't healthy yada, yada prior to that year with the Giants that got him the big payday, but he found a way to stay healthy in his walk year, and then he laid an egg after getting the big deal).

 

Like Alex Cobb when he was with the Orioles, two unhealthy years, then he stays healthy and pitches decently in his walk year.

[drjohnnyfever1]

I don't think we're in the market for a 3yr/75M pitcher anyway.

[Three Run Homer]

We should have been willing to at least match 3/$75.   It's a lot of money but the other top of the rotation starters on the market will cost more in terms of years and dollars. 

It's possible that Gray would have taken STL's offer even if Elias had offered the same terms, since STL has the reputation of being a winning organization, although you would think that players who want to play with a winner would see Baltimore as an attractive destination these days.  

Unfortunately I have no reason to believe that the O's will wind up signing or trading for anyone better than Gray this offseason.  

[OriolesMagic83]

Looks like the pitchers in the O's "sweet spot" of 2 and 3 year deals is dwindling.  Preparing to be underwhelmed.

[Three Run Homer]

3 hours ago, oriole said:

 The O’s obviously shop for hidden value, ex. Gibson, Irvin. 

In some cases the value remains extremely well-hidden.  

[OsFanSinceThe80s]

6 minutes ago, Three Run Homer said:

In some cases the value remains extremely well-hidden.  

 

[Satyr3206]

I wouldn't pay 25 million for a pitcher like that if you held a gun to my head. Hard pass.

[Billy F-Face3]

I think Elias is tied and handicapped against spending on payroll. It's why the pitcher (Flaherty) that they traded for at the deadline was only making 5.4m in 2023 and didn't get anyone better. So you have the cheapness factor also combibed with Sigbot's hoarding prospects factor, which equals underwhelming useless basement bargain shopping deals and waiver claims.  

Until the Orioles get better owners, there isn't much chance for top players to be on the roster and get paid to stay an Oriole long term.

 

We need a closer and some high leverage reliable middle relief pitching most of all.

Having 1 high leverage playoff starter would be nice too. Guys like Snell, Eduardo, Montgomery, Yamamoto, or the posted LHP Shota Imanaga.

However the most I think any of us can even remotely expect (if that) is Michael Wacha. And a teir down from him is Sean Manaea.

I would be pleasantly surprised if they went for the top closers on the market too. I consider Yuki Matsui among the best claas available relievers.

They went shopping the bargain bin last season and more than not, it came back ti bite them. I.E. Mychal Givens ($5M wasted), Jack Flaherty, (another waste of $5M), and Shinyaro Fujinami to name a few. Sure Fuji had some good moments, but he was overall unreliable and wild.

[HakunaSakata]

8 minutes ago, Billy F-Face3 said:

I think Elias is tied and handicapped against spending on payroll. It's why the pitcher (Flaherty) that they traded for at the deadline was only making 5.4m in 2023 and didn't get anyone better. So you have the cheapness factor also combibed with Sigbot's hoarding prospects factor, which equals underwhelming useless basement bargain shopping deals and waiver claims.  

Until the Orioles get better owners, there isn't much chance for top players to be on the roster and get paid to stay an Oriole long term.

 

We need a closer and some high leverage reliable middle relief pitching most of all.

Having 1 high leverage playoff starter would be nice too. Guys like Snell, Eduardo, Montgomery, Yamamoto, or the posted LHP Shota Imanaga.

However the most I think any of us can even remotely expect (if that) is Michael Wacha. And a teir down from him is Sean Manaea.

I would be pleasantly surprised if they went for the top closers on the market too. I consider Yuki Matsui among the best claas available relievers.

They went shopping the bargain bin last season and more than not, it came back ti bite them. I.E. Mychal Givens ($5M wasted), Jack Flaherty, (another waste of $5M), and Shinyaro Fujinami to name a few. Sure Fuji had some good moments, but he was overall unreliable and wild.

I'm not sure why you keep doubling down on Wacha. If ever there was pitcher who's going to be unjustifiably overpaid it's Wacha. He has more warning flags in his statcast data than a '71 Ford Pinto. 

[24fps]

5 minutes ago, Billy F-Face3 said:

I think Elias is tied and handicapped against spending on payroll. It's why the pitcher (Flaherty) that they traded for at the deadline was only making 5.4m in 2023 and didn't get anyone better. So you have the cheapness factor also combibed with Sigbot's hoarding prospects factor, which equals underwhelming useless basement bargain shopping deals and waiver claims.  

Until the Orioles get better owners, there isn't much chance for top players to be on the roster and get paid to stay an Oriole long term.

 

We need a closer and some high leverage reliable middle relief pitching most of all.

Having 1 high leverage playoff starter would be nice too. Guys like Snell, Eduardo, Montgomery, Yamamoto, or the posted LHP Shota Imanaga.

However the most I think any of us can even remotely expect (if that) is Michael Wacha. And a teir down from him is Sean Manaea.

I would be pleasantly surprised if they went for the top closers on the market too. I consider Yuki Matsui among the best claas available relievers.

They went shopping the bargain bin last season and more than not, it came back ti bite them. I.E. Mychal Givens ($5M wasted), Jack Flaherty, (another waste of $5M), and Shinyaro Fujinami to name a few. Sure Fuji had some good moments, but he was overall unreliable and wild.

Sigbot prospect hoarding and all the variants on that theme are fast approaching urban myth status IMO.  If we reach the end of spring training and there's still a logjam and Irvin is our fifth starter, that will be different.