Jackson Holliday 2024

[OnlyOneOriole]

1 minute ago, Hallas said:

This is crazy to me.  Holliday has shown 29 fps sprint speed in a very short stint up, which is plus-plus speed.  Sprint speed doesn't even peak until like 23 or 24, so he might go even higher.  Sprint speed is one of the universal hallmarks of raw athleticism and a Holliday is really fast.

 

The argument for athleticism applies doe people like Juan Soto, who is a once-in-a-generation hitter but appears to be pretty mediocre as an athlete by MLB standards.  There's no way Holliday fits that description.

 

And if athleticism benchmarks are too specialized, just look at his defense.  He's rated at +2 at 2b in only 2 weeks by OAA, and he hasn't even looked his best.  A mediocre athlete wouldn't be able to handle the dynamic movements of a MI position the way Holliday has.

We will have to agree to disagree.  Tony said the same.  Gunnar, in the words of the Joker....just 'does stuff' that most other players cannot.  JH included.  And that all goes down to athleticism.

I think some of you are confusing the word athleticism with just strictly raw speed or jumping for example.  Yes that is a part of it but that is not how I am using the word.  I mean it in the sense that you are a person who can play any and all sports well.  Who has the mental and physical acuity and ability to do something in an excellent way no matter the sport.  I am sure you have all seen and grown up with kids like this.  Guys who could play 4 sports in HS at an elite level.  I know I have.  I played with a quite a few of them in HS and college.  

 

As I said watch some 'pro athletes' try and throw out an opening pitch or golf or skate or play baseketball.  They can't.  Why?  Because they don't have the athleticism.

Gunnar does. 

[OnlyOneOriole]

2 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

I still don’t think people are grasping the idea that Holliday is only 20 years old. He isn’t close to physical maturity. He isn’t close to baseball maturity.

When gunnar was 20, he wasn’t nearly the offensive player Holliday is now and most people didn’t think he could stay at SS. 
 

Now he might be the best player in the sport and could be in for an all time season.

I don’t say that to say Holliday is going to do the same thing. I say it because there is a ton of development still in the tank for Holliday and he’s already really really good. 

 

In lots of sports age 20 is starting to be old as they have already reached their peaks.  Baseball and the other majors are different obviously.  Especially I would say baseball as baseball requires a lot of mental IQ, experience and hand/eye coordination that only comes through repetition.  Things like hitting a baseball coming at you at 90 mph or moving all over the place for example.    It ain't easy. 

[DrinkinWithFermi]

6 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

I still don’t think people are grasping the idea that Holliday is only 20 years old. He isn’t close to physical maturity. He isn’t close to baseball maturity.

But some random nobody who consistently posts hilariously bad takes on the internet doesn't think he looks like a STAR.

Who are you (or all of the people who get paid a lot of money to assess talent for billion dollar sports franchises) to disagree?

[Sports Guy]

3 minutes ago, OnlyOneOriole said:

We will have to agree to disagree.  Tony said the same.  Gunnar, in the words of the Joker....just 'does stuff' that most other players cannot.  JH included.  And that all goes down to athleticism.

I think some of you are confusing the word athleticism with just strictly raw speed or jumping for example.  Yes that is a part of it but that is not how I am using the word.  I mean it in the sense that you are a person who can play any and all sports well.  Who has the mental and physical acuity and ability to do something in an excellent way no matter the sport.  I am sure you have all seen and grown up with kids like this.  Guys who could play 4 sports in HS at an elite level.  I know I have.  I played with a quite a few of them in HS and college.  

 

As I said watch some 'pro athletes' try and throw out an opening pitch or golf or skate or play baseketball.  They can't.  Why?  Because they don't have the athleticism.

Gunnar does. 

I don’t get this comparing Gunnar stuff. Ok, Gunnar is better athlete. So what?  Does that diminish Holliday?

And btw, Tony said Holliday isn’t at that level yet and would need development to get there. He didn’t say he’s not a great athlete.

Tony also didn’t think Henderson would be a SS as of a few years ago.  Things change as players train more, get bigger and stronger, etc…

[waroriole]

34 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

Tony Gwynn, I believe was a very good basketball player in college.  Wade Boggs is in the HOF and I don’t think anyone would call him an elite athlete.  Athleticism is helpful in all sports but probably not as important in baseball.

I love all the Tony Gwynn stats related to how little he struck out. One of my favorites is that he had more Assists as a college basketball player than strikeouts in his MLB career. 

[webbrick2010]

1 hour ago, Moose Milligan said:

Absolutely.  A high OBP bat in this lineup would do wonders.

Could trade for Joey Ortiz, the guy that was blocked by Adam freakin Frazier and traded or a one year rental.

A good trade that will not look as good if the O's can't fix their pitching.

[webbrick2010]

31 minutes ago, OnlyOneOriole said:

When I mentioned those players above like Deion or a Jordan, yes I know they were not at good at baseball as they were in football and baseball.  I mean obviously lol. 

What I meant was those guys were such good athletes that even though they barely played baseball once they committed to their main sports of football and bball, they could still perform at a level as good at or better than many other baseball players who had played baseball their whole lives. 

That is special.  Most people would have gone out there and looked like fools trying to play a different sport professionally.

For example watch some NBA or football players try to throw a pitch to home plate for an honorary opening pitch.  Some throw like a girl or have no idea how to throw.     They look like Obama haha.  I have seen better throws by some very hot looking K pop girls throwing out a first pitch compared to some pro athletes I have seen.    You would be shocked at how bad many pro athletes are at other sports.  I see it all the time on you tube for example.

One group of athletes that imo are some of the best in the world as far as playing and being good at a lot of different sports?  Hockey players.  Just some elite elite athletes in that sport.  Which makes sense.  I have played hockey my entire life and being able to skate and move to the level that pro hockey players do?   Really is amazing.  It is so difficult. 

And you would be shocked at how many hockey players are really really good golfers.   Which makes sense as carrying around a hockey stick and having  the touch to make and take passes and shoot is very similar to golf.  All in the hands. 

Wow this has to set a record for offensive comments in a single post

[OnlyOneOriole]

1 minute ago, Sports Guy said:

I don’t get this comparing Gunnar stuff. Ok, Gunnar is better athlete. So what?  Does that diminish Holliday?

And btw, Tony said Holliday isn’t at that level yet and would need development to get there. He didn’t say he’s not a great athlete.

Tony also didn’t think Henderson would be a SS as of a few years ago.  Things change as players train more, get bigger and stronger, etc…

No.  My entire point in all of this is I, as imo, do not think that JH will ever live up to his 1 and 1 status and the hype machine that came with it. 

I could be totally wrong.  I REALLY HOPE I am wrong.

But, if Elias has any of even an inkling of that same thought process?  I think you need to look long and hard at getting a boatload for him in a trade while his status is still way up there.     Get it while the gettin' is hot. 

Personally I would do it and only because his hype balloon got so inflated that it almost has to pop or deflate somewhat.  And again, I don't see elite in him.  

OTOH when I saw Gunnar, who was hyped but not anywhere near the same as JH, I said this guy has 'it'.  Do not under any circumstances ever trade this guy and sign him long term ASAP. 

[OnlyOneOriole]

4 minutes ago, webbrick2010 said:

Could trade for Joey Ortiz, the guy that was blocked by Adam freakin Frazier and traded or a one year rental.

A good trade that will not look as good if the O's can't fix their pitching.

Yeah that is still laughable to me.  You would think Elias would be a little more aggressive playing the young guys after seeing that but not so far. 

[OnlyOneOriole]

3 minutes ago, webbrick2010 said:

Wow this has to set a record for offensive comments in a single post

Name one.  Obama lol?  Did you see him throw?  My 7 year old daughter throws better. And check out those high waisted jeans and dad sneakers haha.

I actually thought I threw out all kinds of compliments in that post.  Like I said before, the world is all about bias and perception. 

 

 

 

 

[Sports Guy]

4 minutes ago, OnlyOneOriole said:

No.  My entire point in all of this is I, as imo, do not think that JH will ever live up to his 1 and 1 status and the hype machine that came with it. 

I could be totally wrong.  I REALLY HOPE I am wrong.

But, if Elias has any of even an inkling of that same thought process?  I think you need to look long and hard at getting a boatload for him in a trade while his status is still way up there.     Get it while the gettin' is hot. 

Personally I would do it and only because his hype balloon got so inflated that it almost has to pop or deflate somewhat.  And again, I don't see elite in him.  

OTOH when I saw Gunnar, who was hyped but not anywhere near the same as JH, I said this guy has 'it'.  Do not under any circumstances ever trade this guy and sign him long term ASAP. 

Well you wouldn’t be the first person to use a SSS to completely change your mind (you were high on Holliday) and turn out to look like a total fool, so I guess there’s that.

Holliday is going to be a 5+ WAR guy pretty much immediately.

[OnlyOneOriole]

1 minute ago, Sports Guy said:

Well you wouldn’t be the first person to use a SSS to completely change your mind (you were high on Holliday) and turn out to look like a total fool, so I guess there’s that.

Holliday is going to be a 5+ WAR guy pretty much immediately.

I had seen highlights of JH play before but never complete games until he came to Bmore.

I saw enough. 

[Hallas]

Just now, OnlyOneOriole said:

We will have to agree to disagree.  Tony said the same.  Gunnar, in the words of the Joker....just 'does stuff' that most other players cannot.  JH included.  And that all goes down to athleticism.

I think some of you are confusing the word athleticism with just strictly raw speed or jumping for example.  Yes that is a part of it but that is not how I am using the word.  I mean it in the sense that you are a person who can play any and all sports well.  Who has the mental and physical acuity and ability to do something in an excellent way no matter the sport.  I am sure you have all seen and grown up with kids like this.  Guys who could play 4 sports in HS at an elite level.  I know I have.  I played with a quite a few of them in HS and college.  

 

As I said watch some 'pro athletes' try and throw out an opening pitch or golf or skate or play baseketball.  They can't.  Why?  Because they don't have the athleticism.

Gunnar does. 

First of all, pretty much everyone that wears an MLB uniform is a good enough athlete to play just about any sport to at least a d3 collegiate level, and likely d1, Holliday included.  The only exceptions would be people that have hard size limitations.  (e.g. Corbin Carroll or Jose Altuve are unlikely to be football players simply due to their size.  And Altuve isn't going to cut it in basketball for the same reason.)  But for sports like skateboarding or any swing sports like tennis or golf?  I guarantee JH could be a high level college athlete if not a pro player if he focused on them.  If you're arguing that Gunnar has athleticism/body control that's elite even among MLB standards, and Holliday doesn't.... maybe I'd agree with you?  But Gunnar is always going to have his arm tool over Holliday.  In my limited time viewing Holliday, I'd actually rate Holliday's body control to be better than Gunnar's, but a large part of that is because Gunnar is 6'4" 220, and Holliday is 6' 190.  I'd also say that Gunnar having the body control and athleticism he has given his size is pretty exceptional, so if you want to bring up his combination of size and athleticism/body control, I'd agree with you.

 

But you're coming off like Uncle Rico in Napoleon Dynamite, while implying that someone who's like 89th percentile sprint speed isn't an elite athlete even among other MLB players, and that is just outlandish to me.   

[SemperFi]

4 minutes ago, Il BuonO said:

Good points all. Yeah, the transition from the grass to the dirt is not as advantageous because of more reaction time in the OF. It's one of the reasons why I believe it might be an easier transition for him than from SS to 2B. 

Also, in my minimal experience scouting, it was pretty easy to tell right away if a guy is capable just by asking him to take some balls in the OF. I would guess it's hit their radar.

That's a good point as an OF I read swings but it's different on dirt.  I could freeze knowing my speed would make up for a poor read-no time to do that on dirt.  There was more time to think in the OF which was good and bad.

To your second point- I didn't think about it until now but in my coaching experience some kids-the really good OF's were just flat out better at tracking balls than others-combination of eyesight and instincts-not sure but you brought up a good point.  

JH would likely be an plus CF given what we know about him but it will take reps otherwise you're giving up outs and advances.  FWIW-Slotting JH into CF would run somewhat counter intuitive to drafting EBJ and Josenberger (who really only provide value in CF) in the last draft.

 

[NattyO's]

2 hours ago, sportsfan8703 said:

How much better could our hitters be when they introduce the robo ump?  

To be honest i wont know.  I know im in the absolute minority here but when the robo umps show up, im outa here.  Im barely hanging on now due to the recent rule changes the last few years.  Baseball and football has changed so much lately ive really lost interest.  I actually just cancelled Fubo just so i can save some money.