John Means 2024

[wildcard]

5 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

If Means comes back this year and ends up throwing 100+ innings and performs well, why would he sign that contract?  And please spare me the concept of “he likes it here”

He may not have many more chances at signing a contract, so he’s going to maximize that if he can.

It's a negotiation depending on how Means does.   The point is that if he has value to the O's they could extend him rather then letting him walk.

[ChosenOne21]

1 minute ago, wildcard said:

You are projecting the rest of the season before it happens.   Means may not pitch again this year or he could make up to 18 more starts plus the playoffs.     IMO its too early to say the O's would not extend him during the season.

If he doesn't pitch or barely pitches the rest of the season, why would the O's try to extend him? And if he does come back soon and pitches great, why would he extend for 3M plus incentives with team options?

[wildcard]

1 minute ago, ChosenOne21 said:

If he doesn't pitch or barely pitches the rest of the season, why would the O's try to extend him? And if he does come back soon and pitches great, why would he extend for 3M plus incentives with team options?

Just answered that.

[ChosenOne21]

4 minutes ago, wildcard said:

Just answered that.

Do we have different definitions of extend? To me, an extension is when you sign a player currently under your control to a longer contract. I don't want to do that with Means for any value he'd likely accept.

Now, if at some point during the offseason we fail to land some top-target SPs and we still have a rotational hole, I'd consider bringing Means back on an incentive-laden deal. But we're not a rebuilding club anymore. We shouldn't be looking at gambles like Means's health as plan A. To me, an extension says, "You're plan A."

[Frobby]

11 minutes ago, wildcard said:

You are projecting the rest of the season before it happens.   Means may not pitch again this year or he could make up to 18 more starts plus the playoffs.     IMO its too early to say the O's would not extend him during the season.

Like I said, I don’t care.  He’s never once pitched an entire season and stayed healthy.   That’s not someone I’d sign for more than a year.  And I wouldn’t even do that until after he’s gotten through the rest of this season and at least stayed healthy for a reasonable chunk of the season. The most important ability is availability.   

[Bemorewins]

@wildcard what are the benefits of extending Means beyond this season vs signing an FA pitcher who has proven more reliable/less injury prone? Is it for the purpose of trying to save money? Do you believe in trying to remain as homegrown as possible at all costs/regardless of risk? Is it something else?

I'm curious to understand your perspective because you seem to highly value almost all players who wear an Oriole jersey (our minor league players too) to the point that you seem to almost object moving on/allowing them to leave/trading any for players outside of the organization.

[wildcard]

3 hours ago, Bemorewins said:

@wildcard what are the benefits of extending Means beyond this season vs signing an FA pitcher who has proven more reliable/less injury prone? Is it for the purpose of trying to save money? Do you believe in trying to remain as homegrown as possible at all costs/regardless of risk? Is it something else?

I'm curious to understand your perspective because you seem to highly value almost all players who wear an Oriole jersey (our minor league players too) to the point that you seem to almost object moving on/allowing them to leave/trading any for players outside of the organization.

The O's can release Ort this afternoon.    Not every player should stay.

I think there is a good chance the Santander, Hays and Mullins go next off season.

Urias and McCann will be on the bubble.  Could go if there are good replacements.

Is that enough change for you?

Means is a solid, effective pitcher when healthy.  He has been through a long rehab.   Hopefully he is close to coming out on the other side of that period.   He is not likely to be very expensive like Burnes.    IMO he fits with the O's if he can show he can pitch effective in the last two thirds of this season. 

[wildcard]

4 hours ago, ChosenOne21 said:

Do we have different definitions of extend? To me, an extension is when you sign a player currently under your control to a longer contract. I don't want to do that with Means for any value he'd likely accept.

Now, if at some point during the offseason we fail to land some top-target SPs and we still have a rotational hole, I'd consider bringing Means back on an incentive-laden deal. But we're not a rebuilding club anymore. We shouldn't be looking at gambles like Means's health as plan A. To me, an extension says, "You're plan A."

We do have different definitions of extension.   Means will be a FA after the season.  An extension is any contract the keeps him an Oriole instead of becoming a FA IMO.  One year or more.     Heck the O's may have extended Coulombe when they gave him an option year for 2025.  Its an extension if they pick up the option.

If Means goes FA then he signs with the O's that is not an extension.   That is signing a new contract.

[TopGunnar]

5 hours ago, blid said:

What are you talking about? John Means has always had good results when he's on the mound.  He's a good pitcher. And people thought Mullins was better than he was not because the team was bad, but because he had a standout, elite season where he clubbed 30 home runs and got on base at a .360 clip, production he has not come close to replicating since.

John means is 23-26 in his career. Cedric is a career .253 hitter. They are average maybe even below average players. 

[blid]

Only using W-L as a metric for Means is a bit silly, especially when you're arguing we only think he's good because he was a standout on a bad team.  That's why his W-L record is mediocre!  But he's good when he's healthy.

And as for Mullins, yeah, he's not that great, I'm not saying otherwise.  I'm saying, though, that his 2021 was truly great, and that's why people got the idea he was better than he's ended up being.

[Big Mac]

1 hour ago, TopGunnar said:

John means is 23-26 in his career. Cedric is a career .253 hitter. They are average maybe even below average players. 

Means has been worth 10.3 rWAR over 401 career IP.  He put up a 4.4 in 2019, 1.0 in the Covid 2020 season and 3.6 in 2021, his seasons where he did not miss significant time due to injury.  Mullins has not been good since last July for sure, but from 2021-2023 he put up 12.7 rWAR averaging about 4.2 per season.

 

So, I'm not sure you know what the word "average" means.  

[Sydnor]

1 hour ago, TopGunnar said:

John means is 23-26 in his career. Cedric is a career .253 hitter. They are average maybe even below average players. 

Cedric Mullins has had an above average career and is currently an above replacement level player despite his slump. Stating that he is an average or below average player is not factually accurate. He has been worth 12.8 rWAR in his career to this point, which puts him just outside the top 50 on the Orioles career WAR leader. Dauer and Nieman are tied at 49th with 14.4 WAR (as Orioles).

Mullins might not be a superstar but he has been an above average player or good player during his Orioles career. I think anyone saying something to the contrary is allowing the current slump to cloud the view of what has been a good career to this point.

[maybenxtyr]

1 hour ago, TopGunnar said:

John means is 23-26 in his career. Cedric is a career .253 hitter. They are average maybe even below average players. 

He's a career 123 ERA+ pitcher with a 1.05 WHIP...he may not have a lengthy track record, but the numbers are certainly not "average, or slightly below".

[Grt 2BA FL Gator]

Hyde stated Means is getting a second opinion on his injury. Roch thinks this is ominous. Feel bad for Means and really was hoping he was gonna get the chance to take the bump for a winning team. 

[Orioles West]

I feel for the guy - that injury bug. Loved to watch him work when he was healthy (all five minutes of it).

We’ll always have May 5, 2021. I was living in Washington state at the time he was a dropped third strike from a perfect game.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/SEA/SEA202105050.shtml