If Coby Mayo Can Play Average ML 3B Defense

[Frobby]

25 minutes ago, Roy Firestone said:

I was supposed to be Coby Mayo's biggest promoter, and I got criticised for bringing him up in a post on the Orioles talk page, and NOT minors. But I digress...I think Coby Mayo's defensive deficiencies are somewhat overrated. Yes he has 5 errors at third in Norfolk. I know that at least two were because of the rain and wind...besides. if he hits like he should, any failings defensively would be greatly overshadowed. He has a great arm and at 6'5 he has the size to get at balls hit hard away from him. I would DEFINITELY play him at third. And once again, worth mentioning. Right now, Mayo has more HR, more Rbi than ANY Orioles player..and he's be second in batting average  among regulars if he was on the roster now.And his chase rate is LOWER than the MLB average. Bring him up. He's light years better than Urias.

Simple question Roy: how many times have you seen Mayo play?   What is your basis for saying his defensive deficiencies are overrated?

Don’t misunderstand me — I haven’t seen him play much (3-4 times at Bowie and in spring training), so I don’t have much to go on other than the stat sheet.  I’m not claiming that I have an informed opinion that he’s not a major league quality 3B.  I really don’t know one way or the other; I merely have concerns.   But do you have more to go on than I do?

[Roy Firestone]

47 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Simple question Roy: how many times have you seen Mayo play?   What is your basis for saying his defensive deficiencies are overrated?

Don’t misunderstand me — I haven’t seen him play much (3-4 times at Bowie and in spring training), so I don’t have much to go on other than the stat sheet.  I’m not claiming that I have an informed opinion that he’s not a major league quality 3B.  I really don’t know one way or the other; I merely have concerns.   But do you have more to go on than I do?

I have seen him play 3-4 times on TV and MILBTV..I covered him since High School as you know..I think he's a touch better than average with his glove...but he's going to be star with his bat...thats his value...

[Orioles0615]

9 hours ago, Three Run Homer said:

You're definitely asking the right question--how can we get all of Mayo, Holliday, Westburg, Kjerstad, Cowser and Gunnar into the everyday lineup going forward, without having to relegate one of them to 1B or DH?  

In terms of athleticism it seems that Westburg or Holliday could handle CF, but obviously there is a lot to learn about playing the OF and a lot of uncertainty about whether they could get the hang of it.  For now it seems unlikely that the O's would experiment with that during a game as long as McKenna is around to spell Cedric Mullins.  Would be a cool thing to try next spring training though.  

We are going to need a 1b / DH. Santander is gone after this year, Ohearn isn’t a long term thing

[Brooks The Great]

Agree with the premise of the OP.

Holliday should be converted to CF because Westburg is a good defender at both 2B and 3B. Holliday is average at 2B at best. 

As it stands right now, Holliday doesn't have a place on the major league team this season because Mayo is more major league ready, and the team needs another righty bat to balance the lineup. It's simply not sustainable to keep trotting out Mateo and McKenna, no matter how hot or lucky they are right now against LHP. 

It's in Holliday's best interests to learn and start playing CF as well because CF is a much more premium defensive position, and a glamor position when it comes to his first free agent contract/extension. 

If future Hall of Famer Mookie Betts can move around the diamond to accomodate his team and win games, so can Holliday. I'm not saying Holliday is a future Hall of Famer, but there's no excuse for not converting him to a new position that will help the team.

[accinfo]

7 minutes ago, Brooks The Great said:

 

As it stands right now, Holliday doesn't have a place on the major league team this season because Mayo is more major league ready, and the team needs another righty bat to balance the lineup. It's simply not sustainable to keep trotting out Mateo and McKenna, no matter how hot or lucky they are right now against LHP. 

 

To say Mayo is more major league ready than Holliday is a stretch.  Based on what?  36 AB's at the major league level for Holliday?  Mayo may or may not have the same struggles up here as Holliday, Gunnar Henderson, Nick Markakis, or Cal Ripken did.  Maybe he won’t either but no one here knows even if they have watched every one of Mayo’s at bats.  This team is 23-11 so the people making the decisions are doing a pretty good job.  Fans always want the shiny new potential player over the seasoned veterans but the baseball people seem to value whatever the intangibles that players like Mateo, Urias, McKenna, etc bring to a 26 man squad.  I would agree more with the shiny new player on a team that isn’t having success.  That is not this team.  

[Rbiggs2525]

What I will say is don’t always trust the scouts. I will also say it doesn’t hurt Mayo getting as many reps in the minors on defense. We are fortunate he can still develop down there. 

[Bemorewins]

11 hours ago, Roy Firestone said:

I was supposed to be Coby Mayo's biggest promoter, and I got criticised for bringing him up in a post on the Orioles talk page, and NOT minors. But I digress...I think Coby Mayo's defensive deficiencies are somewhat overrated. Yes he has 5 errors at third in Norfolk. I know that at least two were because of the rain and wind...besides. if he hits like he should, any failings defensively would be greatly overshadowed. He has a great arm and at 6'5 he has the size to get at balls hit hard away from him. I would DEFINITELY play him at third. And once again, worth mentioning. Right now, Mayo has more HR, more RBI than ANY Orioles player..and he'd be second in batting average among regulars if he was on the roster now. And his chase rate is LOWER than the MLB average. Bring him up. He's light years better than Urias.

As long you’ve been a fan of the O’s, as impressive as Mayo’s offensive stats are, you have to know that those Minor League numbers do not carry a direct one-to-one correlation to the Bigs. Despite the gaudy numbers, there is no guarantee that he wouldn’t struggle initially with the O’s (like so many other recent prospects have).

Is there any downside in allowing him to continue to work on his defense at AAA? Since that appears to be the area of his game that is not “big league ready”?

[Bemorewins]

9 hours ago, Brooks The Great said:

Agree with the premise of the OP.

Holliday should be converted to CF because Westburg is a good defender at both 2B and 3B. Holliday is average at 2B at best. 

As it stands right now, Holliday doesn't have a place on the major league team this season because Mayo is more major league ready, and the team needs another righty bat to balance the lineup. It's simply not sustainable to keep trotting out Mateo and McKenna, no matter how hot or lucky they are right now against LHP. 

It's in Holliday's best interests to learn and start playing CF as well because CF is a much more premium defensive position, and a glamor position when it comes to his first free agent contract/extension. 

If future Hall of Famer Mookie Betts can move around the diamond to accomodate his team and win games, so can Holliday. I'm not saying Holliday is a future Hall of Famer, but there's no excuse for not converting him to a new position that will help the team.

In your opinion what has made Jackson Holliday the number rated prospect in all of MLB?

I ask because if you believe in that valuation/talent profile/projection, that is not a player at age 20 who you say he’s only average here so he must go there (where who knows how he’ll be, but oh well on to the next). 

Mookie Betts is the absolute rarity in his ability to move all over the baseball field and excel. How many other guys have done that and can realistically do that? I would bet very few. I’m not sure if that is the wisest call to make that the standard for anyone, let alone your most prized minor league asset.

[btdart20]

19 hours ago, RZNJ said:

That is a big hypothetical and I know how many of you will struggle to accept the premise.  BUT, if Mayo can handle 3B everything else could fall into place by next year.   That allows Kjerstad to take over RF when Santander leaves.  It leaves Mountcastle at 1B with Basallo in waiting.   O’Hearn to get another year at DH.  And either Westburg or Holliday at 2B.  Here’s the kicker.  Why not attempt to turn Westburg or Holliday into a CF?

The Padres had no problem doing that with their #1 SS prospect.  Both Westburg (28.7) and Holliday (28.8) show better sprint speed than Merrill (28.0) or Mullins (27.7).   Merrill already has a +3 OAA so it looks to be a success so far.    
 

This would allow the Orioles to solve one of their biggest questions.   Who succeeds Cedric and will they be ready by OD 2026?

It also puts all of our top guys comfortably in one spot.  Logjam solved.

1B Basallo

2B Holliday (only because Holliday supporters get more upset than Westburg’s)

SS Henderson

3B Mayo

C Rutschman 

LF Cowser

CF Westburg

RF Kjerstad

DH Whoever

You’re welcome!

I wouldn't try Westburg in CF as his primary position (as a super utility,  sure).  He’s been so stable in the dirt.  Holliday is a maybe.  

I'm more confident in Mayo's defense than others.  Not that he'll be a better defender, but that he'll be a net positive.  Austin Riley-esque.  Plan B would be 1B IMO because of IF experience.

Tough to really say for 2024 though with how Mateo and Westburg are playing (and RHHs).  Urias is the low man but don't want Mayo sitting that much. Probably takes an injury for Mayo to get a shot before rosters expand. 

For Holliday and Mayo both:  our IF is really good.  Players have key strengths even if not great all-around like Gunnar/Adley.  Westburg is trending toward being plus all-around.  

[Orioles Jim]

10 hours ago, Roy Firestone said:

I have seen him play 3-4 times on TV and MILBTV..I covered him since High School as you know..I think he's a touch better than average with his glove...but he's going to be star with his bat...thats his value...

I agree, he’s Aaron Judge in the infield seemingly.

[Can_of_corn]

Just now, Orioles Jim said:

I agree, he’s Aaron Judge in the infield seemingly.

So an MVP?

Seems reasonable.

[sportsfan8703]

If Mayo can play an average 3B he should be here in mid June. There’s a role for him. Might as well get the service clock benefits while Mateo is playing well. 

The flip side is… is if we score more runs then we play less close/save situation games. So we could bludgeon teams. 

[Matt Bennett]

10 hours ago, accinfo said:

To say Mayo is more major league ready than Holliday is a stretch.  Based on what?  36 AB's at the major league level for Holliday?  Mayo may or may not have the same struggles up here as Holliday, Gunnar Henderson, Nick Markakis, or Cal Ripken did.  Maybe he won’t either but no one here knows even if they have watched every one of Mayo’s at bats.  This team is 23-11 so the people making the decisions are doing a pretty good job.  Fans always want the shiny new potential player over the seasoned veterans but the baseball people seem to value whatever the intangibles that players like Mateo, Urias, McKenna, etc bring to a 26 man squad.  I would agree more with the shiny new player on a team that isn’t having success.  That is not this team.  

What is the obsession with lumping in Henderson’s debut and acclimation into the league with Holliday’s? As if they are in anyway comparable. I feel like I’m the only one that watched Gunnar come into the MLB. He homered in his first game! He was OPS’ing .900 3 weeks in! In 2023 he was BARELY below LEAGUE AVERAGE offensive production in April with a 96 wRC+. He was above league average in May. All the while making his typical spectacular defensive plays. We would have killed for anywhere near those types of results for Holliday. And he would still be in Baltimore if that were the case. 

I’m stunned at the amount of times Gunnar is listed as an analogy to Holliday’s start. If the analogy is “look how much better a player can get after half a season of adjusting” and not “you can be a bad player when you come up just like Gunnar was”. Boggles my mind! 

[eddie83]

11 hours ago, Brooks The Great said:

Agree with the premise of the OP.

Holliday should be converted to CF because Westburg is a good defender at both 2B and 3B. Holliday is average at 2B at best. 

As it stands right now, Holliday doesn't have a place on the major league team this season because Mayo is more major league ready, and the team needs another righty bat to balance the lineup. It's simply not sustainable to keep trotting out Mateo and McKenna, no matter how hot or lucky they are right now against LHP. 

It's in Holliday's best interests to learn and start playing CF as well because CF is a much more premium defensive position, and a glamor position when it comes to his first free agent contract/extension. 

If future Hall of Famer Mookie Betts can move around the diamond to accomodate his team and win games, so can Holliday. I'm not saying Holliday is a future Hall of Famer, but there's no excuse for not converting him to a new position that will help the team.

Holliday was a number 1 pick at SS. 
 

Why do you think he will be average at 2nd?

[jamalshw]

I like all the creativity here and love the fact that even if we were to move someone like Holliday or Westburg to CF, you still cannot get all the top position players currently at AAA or AA in the lineup everyday. That certainly means we still have excess talent that could be used as a trade chip. 

Of course, there is also the likelihood someone doesn't pan out due to production or injury. If Mayo were to stick at 3B giving you Mayo, Henderson and Holliday in the infield, I think I would be include to keep Westburg as a super utility guy that still plays most everyday as you flex guys around and keep them fresh with days off. Each of Mayo, Holliday and Henderson can get a day off each week and Westburg can filter in at DH and learn some OF, too, and fill in there. The type of role Ben Zobrist had for a few years, an everyday player without an everyday spot. That also builds in an injury buffer where a single injury anywhere on the field doesn't really hurt.  

The other key is Basallo. If he can stick at catcher (even as a part-time catcher), that would be amazing. We all love the Adley/McCann duo, but imagine an Adley/Basallo duo catching and DHing. With both in the lineup nearly everyday, you can carry a third catcher (which would be a luxury available particularly if you have someone in that super utility role).

The options are plentiful which is what makes it so exciting.