What, if anything - would it take for your to forgive Peter Angelos

[TiredofLosing20]

25 summers, minus 2. 25 of the last 25 years we have not made the World Series. Only two years did we make the playoffs. People who want to blame the owner for everything conviently leave this stat out.

I am not too greedy. I just would like winning seasons. In the 11 seasons (1983-1993) the O's had 6 winning seasons. In the 15 full seasons (1994-2008) Angelos has owned the team we have had 2 winning seasons. I think the stats are pretty clear. He is the only one thats been around the whole time. I am just not sure who else to blame. The people responsible for the two winning seasons were sent packing at the end of the second season and they haven't won since. We do not have an excuse like Pittsburgh and KC. The O's have been thoroughly mismanaged and the only one to blame is Angelos.

[hoosiers]

PA has made a lot of poor decisions - running some good baseball folks out of town and keeping some poor ones in town longer than he should have. Rumors of his interference into potential trades and draft choices are very disappointing to hear for me - though it's more disappointing that he may have been right than our GMs about rejecting trades.

That said, I've always seen PA's potential as an owner and still hope he can reach it. PA loves the city and state, wants to win badly and has the financial capability and desire to make the type of difference many/most owners would or could not.

PA has not been that kind of owner in nearly 10 years - when we had the highest payroll in baseball, landed Belle, and put out big coin for all those first rounders taken from 1998-2001. Thankfully, I think we now have a GM in place who can advocate spending big $ on the draft and internationally and who will make sure there is an appropriate return on that spend - and that spending this $ is an area where our owner can step up and provide a competitive advantage. In other words, my hope is that we have a GM in place who will enable PA to a difference maker of an owner - this time in a positive way. We should know whether this is the case or not in a few years.

[Dipper9]

Angelos told Frobby he'd sit down with him and find another position in the organization when Gillick was hired if he didn't want him as Assistant GM anymore. And then Gillick goes and fires him and Angelos doesn't follow through with the new position. That would be enough to make me distrust and dislike somebody.

Also in the same vein Brooksie was interested in being a community liason and he met with Angelos several times, but never got a response back from him. So Brooksie decided that was that and has been distant from the organization since...

Angelos drove two of the most honored and important players in the history of the franchise away. That's like the Yankees alienating Reggie Jackson and Yogi Berra...

I am aware of both of these things. But again I ask, what would YOU like to see Brooks and Frank doing for this organization? Just because Angelos spurned them does not mean they cannot be advocates for the Baltimore Orioles that THEY played for. Do you think Frank should be granted carte blanche and be able to have any job he wants in the organization? And to state facts, Angelos didn't fire Frank as manager of the team, so maybe Franks angst at the Orioles started before Angelos' tenure?????

[TyCobb]

Angelos told Frobby he'd sit down with him and find another position in the organization when Gillick was hired if he didn't want him as Assistant GM anymore. And then Gillick goes and fires him and Angelos doesn't follow through with the new position. That would be enough to make me distrust and dislike somebody.

Also in the same vein Brooksie was interested in being a community liason and he met with Angelos several times, but never got a response back from him. So Brooksie decided that was that and has been distant from the organization since...

Angelos drove two of the most honored and important players in the history of the franchise away. That's like the Yankees alienating Reggie Jackson and Yogi Berra...

And they came back. Are you sure that is true with Frobby. Angelos doesn't seem like a guy that will back out of his word. Even evidence in the past suggest that Angelos will keep people in the organization. Just look at Flanny. What has he been doing for 2 years?

[TiredofLosing20]

ding ding ding ding ding....close the thread, we have a winner!!!!!!!!!!!

Of course, the flip side will say that Angelos hired the scouting department! (

That is exactly right. Ultimately who is responsible for the success of their organization and who should be held accountable? Of course the failures of his subordinates reflect on him. Their failures are absolutely an indictment of his hirings.

[JTrea81]

I am aware of both of these things. But again I ask, what would YOU like to see Brooks and Frank doing for this organization? Just because Angelos spurned them does not mean they cannot be advocates for the Baltimore Orioles that THEY played for. Do you think Frank should be granted carte blanche and be able to have any job he wants in the organization? And to state facts, Angelos didn't fire Frank as manager of the team, so maybe Franks angst at the Orioles started before Angelos' tenure?????

I want to see Brooks and Frank hanging around the new guys telling them about the Orioles' past history like Reggie Jackson and Yogi Berra do for the Yankees. It's an absolute crime that the Orioles haven't reached out to those two more to get them back with the team.

I have no doubt in my mind once Angelos is no longer the owner, if those two are still alive, they'll be welcomed back with open arms...

[JTrea81]

And they came back. Are you sure that is true with Frobby. Angelos doesn't seem like a guy that will back out of his word. Even evidence in the past suggest that Angelos will keep people in the organization. Just look at Flanny. What has he been doing for 2 years?

I'll let Tony Soprano give you all the Angelos quotes over the years to show he doesn't keep his word.

And if you read Eisenberg's book From 33rd Street to Camden Yards you'll see Frobby's account of how Angelos broke his promise and how it has made him bitter at this organization...

[TyCobb]

I want to see Brooks and Frank hanging around the new guys telling them about the Orioles' past history like Reggie Jackson and Yogi Berra do for the Yankees. It's an absolute crime that the Orioles haven't reached out to those two more to get them back with the team.

I have no doubt in my mind once Angelos is no longer the owner, if those two are still alive, they'll be welcomed back with open arms...

lol

If Brooks and Frank wanted to do that they would. Nobody is stopping them but themselves.

[Dipper9]

lol

If Brooks and Frank wanted to do that they would. Nobody is stopping them but themselves.

Exactly. Trembley has reached out to many, MANY former Orioles to get them in camp. Does anybody really think that if Trembley and the Robinsons agreed for them to come to camp, that Peter Angelos would stand in the way? No way. I do not doubt that indiscretions have occurred in the past with all of these men, but to allow the feelings of ill will to linger all these years is nothing more than Elementary School revisited.

[Frobby]

For the most part Angelos has been a lousy owner, but I don't assign him bad intentions, so I don't feel I need to forgive him for anything, any more than I need to forgive Ray Miller for being a bad manager.

I'm hoping, as some have suggested, that Angelos has finally learned some lessons along the way. He's hired a good GM and appears to be mostly staying out of his way. If he just keeps doing that, I will be content.

[TonySoprano]

I'll let Tony Soprano give you all the Angelos quotes over the years to show he doesn't keep his word.

By now, everyone knows them all. How we're supposed to be right on the heels, or in the faces of the Yankees and Red Sox.....how we'll make the necessary acquisitions to be successful.............

[TiredofLosing20]

For the most part Angelos has been a lousy owner, but I don't assign him bad intentions, so I don't feel I need to forgive him for anything, any more than I need to forgive Ray Miller for being a bad manager.

I'm hoping, as some have suggested, that Angelos has finally learned some lessons along the way. He's hired a good GM and appears to be mostly staying out of his way. If he just keeps doing that, I will be content.

I guess this probably sums up how I feel. I think he is a horrible owner and not a great guy but forgiveness is a weird word for me in this case. If he changes and the O's turn around then I will be happy, but it doesn't change his negative impact on O's baseball over the past 15 years. What's done is done. That is his legacy as we stand today. It is not a good one.

[SilentJames]

For the most part Angelos has been a lousy owner, but I don't assign him bad intentions, so I don't feel I need to forgive him for anything, any more than I need to forgive Ray Miller for being a bad manager.

I'm hoping, as some have suggested, that Angelos has finally learned some lessons along the way. He's hired a good GM and appears to be mostly staying out of his way. If he just keeps doing that, I will be content.

Exactly, that was what I was trying to convey. We can debate this all we want, but at the end of the day the mark of his tenure will always be those 11 losing seasons. Even if the Orioles win the WS this year and set a league record for wins or do some other type of amazing feat it will not be Angelos' win.

He will get credit for stepping away and letting MacPhail run the show. I have always looked at Angelos as a sort of tragic figure, someone who built himself up from nothing, tried to be the white knight and ended up crushing the thing he loved through his actions.

He is Lenny, the Orioles are the rabbit.

[TiredofLosing20]

He is Lenny, the Orioles are the rabbit.

This is hilarious. Because it is true.

[NewMarketSean]

Exactly, that was what I was trying to convey. We can debate this all we want, but at the end of the day the mark of his tenure will always be those 11 losing seasons. Even if the Orioles win the WS this year and set a league record for wins or do some other type of amazing feat it will not be Angelos' win.

I disagree. A WS erases everything. Sure, the negative Nellies will still harp on those losing seasons, but all anyone can say is "yeah, but he won a WS".