Article on why Gary needs to be fired

[Tony-OH]

Well, you're right about that.

Somehow I don't think that remark was in support of me. Eh, you've said worse.

[Lateralus]

Go root for Kentucky then. Seriously. They fired Tubby Smith, whose great sin was losing in the second round of the tournament three years of four. They hired Billy Gillispie, then fired him after one tournament and one NIT appearance, than sold their soul to Calipari.

Ah, I love the holier-than-thou, I'm-a-better-fan-than-you crowd. Heavens to Betsy I want the Terps to become an elite team, like the Kentucky's/Duke's/etc. So instead of MD becoming elite, I should just root for an elite team. Nice logic.

By that logic I should stop rooting for the Orioles. I should just go root for the Sox or Yankees. Right? I mean, I want/expect the O's to be a top-franchise. I shouldn't blame Peter Angelos, the one constant during the Orioles stink-a-tude (just like Gary Williams is the 1 constant during the Terps fall-to-mediocrity). No they shouldn't be held accountable, I should just go root for another team.

Yeah, that's the ticket.

Oh, btw, Tubby Smith hasn't done squat since going to Minnesota.

[JohnD]

In the last 10-15 years I've seen "basketball schools" like NC State and Virginia become absolute dregs of the sport. Even with very good facilities (both have nice, new on-campus arenas) they have become doormats in the league. NC State ran off a pretty good coach who typically wasn't as good as Gary. Virginia has been a revolving door of coaches who haven't been able to achieve much. And even when they got the guy they wanted to in terms of the next coach (Sidney Lowe wasn't that guy at State, even if he was an alum), it didn't always work out.

I won't even get into the plummet Wake Forest just went through. And Georgia Tech may be in even worse shape now, despite having top draft picks the past few years.

All that being said, it should be considered that Gary's worst years are still better than a lot of team's worst years -- and I'm talking about teams who feel they should be competing with Maryland. Gary can do better. We know because he's seen it. And there are probably other coaches out there who can do better, too. But we could recite any number of "rising" coaches who have come to the ACC and flamed out hard. There's hardly any guarantee that Maryland would be an exception to that possibility.

[Danielos38]

In the last 10-15 years I've seen "basketball schools" like NC State and Virginia become absolute dregs of the sport. Even with very good facilities (both have nice, new on-campus arenas) they have become doormats in the league. NC State ran off a pretty good coach who typically wasn't as good as Gary. Virginia has been a revolving door of coaches who haven't been able to achieve much. And even when they got the guy they wanted to in terms of the next coach (Sidney Lowe wasn't that guy at State, even if he was an alum), it didn't always work out.

I won't even get into the plummet Wake Forest just went through. And Georgia Tech may be in even worse shape now, despite having top draft picks the past few years.

All that being said, it should be considered that Gary's worst years are still better than a lot of team's worst years -- and I'm talking about teams who feel they should be competing with Maryland. Gary can do better. We know because he's seen it. And there are probably other coaches out there who can do better, too. But we could recite any number of "rising" coaches who have come to the ACC and flamed out hard. There's hardly any guarantee that Maryland would be an exception to that possibility.

This pretty much sums everything up.

[DuffMan]

This pretty much sums everything up.

I don't understand how you were for the Dave Cottle firing (still a bad move) but want to keep Gary around.

[BaltimoreTerp]

Ah, I love the holier-than-thou, I'm-a-better-fan-than-you crowd. Heavens to Betsy I want the Terps to become an elite team, like the Kentucky's/Duke's/etc. So instead of MD becoming elite, I should just root for an elite team. Nice logic.

By that logic I should stop rooting for the Orioles. I should just go root for the Sox or Yankees. Right? I mean, I want/expect the O's to be a top-franchise. I shouldn't blame Peter Angelos, the one constant during the Orioles stink-a-tude (just like Gary Williams is the 1 constant during the Terps fall-to-mediocrity). No they shouldn't be held accountable, I should just go root for another team.

Yeah, that's the ticket.

Oh, btw, Tubby Smith hasn't done squat since going to Minnesota.

The sad part is, I KNEW you were going to focus on the literal "Go root for *whoever*" part of the post and ignore the actual point. So if you would like to actually debate the issue, I'm waiting. If not, please don't bother responding.

Oh, and "btw", I guess taking a school that saw one 20-win season and tournament appearance in nine years and giving them three 20-win seasons and two tournament appearances in four years is now "squat". Since you couldn't grasp the point from my post earlier, I'll spell it out to you.

YOUR. EXPECTATIONS. ARE. TOO. HIGH. FOR. ANY. PROGRAM.

[Tony-OH]

In the last 10-15 years I've seen "basketball schools" like NC State and Virginia become absolute dregs of the sport. Even with very good facilities (both have nice, new on-campus arenas) they have become doormats in the league. NC State ran off a pretty good coach who typically wasn't as good as Gary. Virginia has been a revolving door of coaches who haven't been able to achieve much. And even when they got the guy they wanted to in terms of the next coach (Sidney Lowe wasn't that guy at State, even if he was an alum), it didn't always work out.

I won't even get into the plummet Wake Forest just went through. And Georgia Tech may be in even worse shape now, despite having top draft picks the past few years.

All that being said, it should be considered that Gary's worst years are still better than a lot of team's worst years -- and I'm talking about teams who feel they should be competing with Maryland. Gary can do better. We know because he's seen it. And there are probably other coaches out there who can do better, too. But we could recite any number of "rising" coaches who have come to the ACC and flamed out hard. There's hardly any guarantee that Maryland would be an exception to that possibility.

So if I understand you correctly, it's ok for us to wallow in mediocrity due to the chance it could get worse?

Maryland was and should be ahead of all of of those programs. None of them have the talent base that the Maryland basketball program is afforded in the Baltimore/Washington area.

[JohnD]

I guess you didn't understand me correctly, but since it's already been made clear that your mind is made up and since your perceptions of differing viewpoints have been crystalized, that's not a surprise.

I'm not saying it's ok to "wallow in mediocrity." But the idea that someone new is going to come in and *presto" make things better isn't a sure thing -- certainly not as sure as you say it is. And it's not like North Carolina is a barren wasteland of talent. Lots of good players come from that state (Michael Jordan, James Worthy, John Wall, and Tracy McGrady are right off the top of my head).

The difference is you seem to think Gary Williams is done and washed up, and not everyone else does. You're certain that he'll never make things better, and that anyone else can and will. There's no track record that exists that backs up your contention. And as I mentioned, every other school that tried to rise to prominence went on to fall a lot harder than Maryland ever did. You understate how hard it is to maintain even the "mediocrity" that is Maryland.

In the last few years, schools like UCLA, Arizona, Florida, North Carolina, Virginia, NC State, Georgia Tech, Indiana, and Connecticut have all had their struggles, to varying degrees, to the point they missed the tournament at least once. All of them once were, and could once again, be as prominent as Maryland has been and could be again. In some cases, those schools are considered basketball royalty and have expectations higher than even you do. It's something that happens in this day and age of college hoops. Dook and Kansas are the exceptions, not the rule. Now, understanding that doesn't mean it's ok for Maryland to have down years. But you act like Maryland is the only school that's seen that, and that Gary is unable to fix it. The former part is obviously a falsehood, while the later is debatable. Hell, he's never even had a losing record like many of those programs I mentioned have.

And like the (as Charles Barkley put it) Itty Bitty East Conference, sometimes the talent here gets overrated. A few years ago Gary was getting killed because Chris Wright and Austin Freeman picked Georgetown. At the same time I also heard all about how Greivis Vasquez was too wild and too arrogant and stupid with the ball, and was never going to be all that good. Wright and Freeman won all of ONE NCAA Tournament game in four years, and Vasquez ended up winning ACC POY.

For every Kevin Durant and Carmelo Anthony and Rudy Gay (which was a sleaze situation I don't lament, and who wasn't great in college either) there have also been the Wrights and Freemans and even a guy like Wally Judge, who may still end up transferring here after Kansas State ended miserably.

It's easy to find faults when you focus everything on Maryland. It's not a perfect program right now. But the hyperfocus put there by some leads to a loss of perspective.

[Tony-OH]

I guess you didn't understand me correctly, but since it's already been made clear that your mind is made up and since your perceptions of differing viewpoints have been crystalized, that's not a surprise.

I'm not saying it's ok to "wallow in mediocrity." But the idea that someone new is going to come in and *presto" make things better isn't a sure thing -- certainly not as sure as you say it is. And it's not like North Carolina is a barren wasteland of talent. Lots of good players come from that state (Michael Jordan, James Worthy, John Wall, and Tracy McGrady are right off the top of my head).

The difference is you seem to think Gary Williams is done and washed up, and not everyone else does. You're certain that he'll never make things better, and that anyone else can and will. There's no track record that exists that backs up your contention. And as I mentioned, every other school that tried to rise to prominence went on to fall a lot harder than Maryland ever did. You understate how hard it is to maintain even the "mediocrity" that is Maryland.

In the last few years, schools like UCLA, Arizona, Florida, North Carolina, Virginia, NC State, Georgia Tech, Indiana, and Connecticut have all had their struggles, to varying degrees, to the point they missed the tournament at least once. All of them once were, and could once again, be as prominent as Maryland has been and could be again. In some cases, those schools are considered basketball royalty and have expectations higher than even you do. It's something that happens in this day and age of college hoops. Dook and Kansas are the exceptions, not the rule. Now, understanding that doesn't mean it's ok for Maryland to have down years. But you act like Maryland is the only school that's seen that, and that Gary is unable to fix it. The former part is obviously a falsehood, while the later is debatable. Hell, he's never even had a losing record like many of those programs I mentioned have.

And like the (as Charles Barkley put it) Itty Bitty East Conference, sometimes the talent here gets overrated. A few years ago Gary was getting killed because Chris Wright and Austin Freeman picked Georgetown. At the same time I also heard all about how Greivis Vasquez was too wild and too arrogant and stupid with the ball, and was never going to be all that good. Wright and Freeman won all of ONE NCAA Tournament game in four years, and Vasquez ended up winning ACC POY.

For every Kevin Durant and Carmelo Anthony and Rudy Gay (which was a sleaze situation I don't lament, and who wasn't great in college either) there have also been the Wrights and Freemans and even a guy like Wally Judge, who may still end up transferring here after Kansas State ended miserably.

It's easy to find faults when you focus everything on Maryland. It's not a perfect program right now. But the hyperfocus put there by some leads to a loss of perspective.

Simply answer me this. Do you feel Gary Williams has always given 100 percent when it came to recruiting? Do you feel it was ok for top recruits to show up at Maryland and not even being given a tour and certainly not meeting with Williams? Do you honestly believe that Gary Williams has put his heart and soul into making sure this program stayed at an elite level?

If you believe these things then I understand and can accept your viewpoints. If you believe like I do that he's given less then his best efforts and it's hurt the program, then I don't understand how you can give him the pass that you do.

I don't believe Gary Williams has the energy or desire to work in the current major college basketball landscape. I'm fine if you do, but don't say there is no track record because that's just wrong. I'm not going to go over and over how far this program has fallen because it's been beaten to death. Some people are fine with a winning record and middle of the road conference (mediocrity). I just believe the program should be much better, and Williams has shown absolutely zero ability to ever transform himself or to take any responsibility whatsoever for the programs current state.

Accountability is a big thing for me, and Williams' absolute arrogance while always finding an excuse and never publicly taking responsibility is one of the biggest things I hold against him.

Lastly, lots of school have problems and lots of them switch coaches as well. Maryland is one of the few schools that have given their coach a "lifetime contract" for what he did ten years ago despite the fact that the program has been on a steady spiral since then. The only thing Williams' supporters have any more is what he did ten plus years ago, and the hope that the new class (the eternal hope) is the one that brings Maryland back. All we have are a mountain of evidence that Williams doesn't like to recruit along with a mounting lack of tournament and ACC success.

[Dr. FLK]

I think the opinion of those who want Gary out gets misconstrued far too often. People don't think he's "washed up". They don't think he can't coach anymore. What they do think is that the landscape of college basketball recruiting has evolved rather drastically. Gary has not adapted, and he's not landing sufficient talent to compete regularly. He's paid quite handsomely to coach, recruit, and build a program. He does 1/3 of that. He's not washed up. He just does not recruit effectively.

You mention a few guys who wouldn't have worked out. Super. He also missed out on Delaney and Nolan Smith, who were from his backyard. Michael Beasely is another name that comes to mind. He missed out on Chris Wright and Freeman, as you mentioned (who, I don't believe are the reason Gtown has won only 1 game as much as a lack of depth at Gtown is).

Gary is good at getting the middle of the pack guys to maximize their talent. But, the Terps lack that go-to, star power guy who can take over a game. There are plenty of them in his own backyard. And I'm sick of seeing them all flourish elsewhere. Just get one or two of those guys to supplement everything else he does, and he's good to go.

[JohnD]

There's no question Gary deflects blame. Lots of people do, but he's especially one who does that.

I think he thinks he's put his all in recruiting. That's all subjective to begin with, and all of us wish he'd at least do things differently. I won't say whether the effort is there or not, but in some years the results aren't, and I think the best way to put it is we wish he'd do things differently.

I do think Gary's heart and soul is here. It may not reflect that in recruiting, at least the way you think it should, but in every other manner imaginable it is. He's had essentially three recruiting classes that dropped the ball this decade, leading to the issues that we're debating. In other years he's landed players who have done a good job, including this year's productive freshman class.

But otherwise his players stay out of trouble (Was Nik Caner Medley's underage drinking citation after his freshman year the last time someone had any trouble?) and aside from those bad classes, they graduate.

There's more to being a hoops coach than recruiting, despite what John Calipari tries to proove. There is the actual coaching aspect and the fund raising aspect. Gary's program still carries the department. There are very few coaches in this country who can come in and carry that load right away. And Gary absolutely puts his heart and soul into making sure the money keeps coming in to support the department in general. That matters too.

[JohnD]

Delaney didn't qualify at Maryland academically. How is that his fault?

Beasley went to K State because Huggins hired his handler. He lasted one year there. Then Huggins bolted too. I'm not upset on that either.

And Vasquez and Hayes, less heralded than Freeman and Wright were, still did more than they did.

[Dr. FLK]

Delaney didn't qualify at Maryland academically. How is that his fault?

Beasley went to K State because Huggins hired his handler. He lasted one year there. Then Huggins bolted too. I'm not upset on that either.

And Vasquez and Hayes, less heralded than Freeman and Wright were, still did more than they did.

And MD has gone to 3 tournaments in 7 years. Are you claiming some sort of programmatic victory based on 2 recruits exceeding expectations?

[EDIT: If hiring some schmuck got me 1 year of Beasely, I'd do it. What does it hurt? Good point on Delaney. ]

[Tony-OH]

There's no question Gary deflects blame. Lots of people do, but he's especially one who does that.

I think he thinks he's put his all in recruiting. That's all subjective to begin with, and all of us wish he'd at least do things differently. I won't say whether the effort is there or not, but in some years the results aren't, and I think the best way to put it is we wish he'd do things differently.

I do think Gary's heart and soul is here. It may not reflect that in recruiting, at least the way you think it should, but in every other manner imaginable it is. He's had essentially three recruiting classes that dropped the ball this decade, leading to the issues that we're debating. In other years he's landed players who have done a good job, including this year's productive freshman class.

But otherwise his players stay out of trouble (Was Nik Caner Medley's underage drinking citation after his freshman year the last time someone had any trouble?) and aside from those bad classes, they graduate.

There's more to being a hoops coach than recruiting, despite what John Calipari tries to proove. There is the actual coaching aspect and the fund raising aspect. Gary's program still carries the department. There are very few coaches in this country who can come in and carry that load right away. And Gary absolutely puts his heart and soul into making sure the money keeps coming in to support the department in general. That matters too.

I've seen this said a few times and I guess I just don't get the love for the Freshman. I like Stoglin and think he can be a good player, but he didn't really show an ability to run the point very often very well and he's small (6-1). He can shoot decently but he doesn't appear to be a natural gunner. Bigger more athletic guards that you find in the ACC give him fits on the defensive end.

Howard looks like a classic slasher guy, but at 6-3, again, he's kinda small for the ACC if he's not going to be at point, and he doesn't handle the ball naturally from the PG position.

After that, who? Role guys at best. This Freshman class was so productive that they were part of the first Maryland basketball team to miss the playoffs since 1993.

I didn't see a Williams or a Vasquez in the bunch. Stoglin might be a game changer at some point, but I guess I didn't see that impact player from last year's class.

[JohnD]

I'm saying Gary missed on essentially three recruiting classes that failed to carry the load the way they were supposed to, including one that was lauded as his best ever. Not all of the top players hit. But in between those misses, he's had some good hits too. This current freshman class looks pretty good too, better than it was getting credit for a year ago, and now next year's class is getting lauded. It may be full of busts, but we don't know. And if you replace a guy who hits and misses, especially one who has done as much at Maryland as Gary has, you need to get someone who does nothing but hit. Otherwise the money will stop flowing and some clown wearing a red blazer will try to fool everyone. There's simply no guarantee. And when things are already on the upswing, it's an even bigger risk to tick everyone off.

But humor me. Who would realistically come here and instantly improve the recruiting while also making sure the $$$ kept coming in?