Why can't we pitch?

[CaptainRedbeard]

I agree with all of this, though I'd be pretty happy if they brought Feldman or an equivalent pitcher back for the fifth spot. Fortunately there are a lot of good 3/4 guys available this offseason and I think DD won't have much trouble finding a solid guy for a one or two year deal. I'm mostly worried about whether or not the money will be there. Even with Roberts' money coming off the books, pretty much all of it is going to get chewed up in arbitration raises.

Yeah money is going to be a huge question this offseason. We have holes at LF and DH that are going to need to be filled externally (I figure Urrutia starts in AAA) in addition to finding another SP.

We lose Roberts (10), Hammel (6.75), Wada (4.2), Feldman (~3), Nate (2.5), Betemit (1.75), K-Rod (~1), and Reimold (1). Casilla a probable non-tender (1.6).

But we also gain on Jones (up 5.5), O'Day (1) and Chen (0.5). A monstrous arbitration increase for Davis, plus hefty ones for Wieters and Norris and chunks for Hunter, Matusz, and Patton will take up most of that loss on departed players. Also, Tillman and Gonzalez are going to be borderline super-2, so that would be a blow if either or both cross that threshold.

JJ is going to be the huge question mark. Non-tendering him and going cheap at closer would free up a significant amount of money (6.5).

Bottom line, unless we go cheap on both LF and DH or non-tender Johnson, I don't see it in the budget to add the type of starting pitcher upgrade that we really need. Feldman got 1 yr 6MM this offseason, so I think we'd need to allocate at least that much.

[section18]

Like it or not the pitch calling behind the plate is lacking. Listen to Palmer and Dempsey and Orsulak and you'll hear them say generally our pitchers are throwing too man fastballs middle in to hitters strengths instead of away. This is a really important aspect of our pitching results. I also think Wieters is so big behind the plate when he sets up outside or inside the hitters are cheating and can see him out of the corner of their eye. Wieters should spend as much time as possible training with a former mlb catcher to understand pitch selection to hitters. Why do we always have average players look like All-Stars against us? Victorino 2 HR'S and 7 RBI'S tonight. Come on Buck! What are the advance scouts doing? Come on Matt! What were you calling that was working last night?

[Going Underground]

Like it or not the pitch calling behind the plate is lacking. Listen to Palmer and Dempsey and Orsulak and you'll hear them say generally our pitchers are throwing too man fastballs middle in to hitters strengths instead of away. This is a really important aspect of our pitching results. I also think Wieters is so big behind the plate when he sets up outside or inside the hitters are cheating and can see him out of the corner of their eye. Wieters should spend as much time as possible training with a former mlb catcher to understand pitch selection to hitters. Why do we always have average players look like All-Stars against us? Victorino 2 HR'S and 7 RBI'S tonight. Come on Buck! What are the advance scouts doing? Come on Matt! What were you calling that was working last night?

The pitching was decent last year,so the Orioles made the playoffs. This year they are again in the bottom five in ERA. Not many teams make the playoffs with an ERA in the bottom five. I don't think you can blame Wieters. Put him on the Nats and I bet their ERA would still be really good. Pitchers have to execute the pitches. No pitcher wants to throw a belt high fastball over the plate. What catcher would call that pitch?

Can we blame Brady? He worked with Matusz,Britton,Chen.Gonzo and Tillman. Has conditioning helped these guys. I guess Tillman but the others not so much. The Orioles have hyped up this conditioning program and not many results. Sort of like the hype of prospects.

[webbrick2010]

Like it or not the pitch calling behind the plate is lacking. Listen to Palmer and Dempsey and Orsulak and you'll hear them say generally our pitchers are throwing too man fastballs middle in to hitters strengths instead of away. This is a really important aspect of our pitching results. I also think Wieters is so big behind the plate when he sets up outside or inside the hitters are cheating and can see him out of the corner of their eye. Wieters should spend as much time as possible training with a former mlb catcher to understand pitch selection to hitters. Why do we always have average players look like All-Stars against us? Victorino 2 HR'S and 7 RBI'S tonight. Come on Buck! What are the advance scouts doing? Come on Matt! What were you calling that was working last night?

It's not just the pitch calling, but the target and the framing. Matt is too big to set a good low strike zone target. He catches everything thigh high and lower with his thumb down which causes his glove to move away from the strike zone. Smaller catchers with a lower crouch can set a knee high target with their glove thumb up and bring the pitch back into their body making it look more like a strike. The O's need to find a catch and throw guy and trade Weiter before his trade value drops to zero.

[Three Run Homer]

Like it or not the pitch calling behind the plate is lacking. Listen to Palmer and Dempsey and Orsulak and you'll hear them say generally our pitchers are throwing too man fastballs middle in to hitters strengths instead of away. This is a really important aspect of our pitching results. I also think Wieters is so big behind the plate when he sets up outside or inside the hitters are cheating and can see him out of the corner of their eye. Wieters should spend as much time as possible training with a former mlb catcher to understand pitch selection to hitters. Why do we always have average players look like All-Stars against us? Victorino 2 HR'S and 7 RBI'S tonight. Come on Buck! What are the advance scouts doing? Come on Matt! What were you calling that was working last night?

Nothing Matt was calling was working. That's the problem. You can't possibly be blaming Wieters for the fact that Chen had no command of any of his pitches last night.

[NewMarketSean]

Because we can't develop our own pitching. Plain and simple. Whether its injuries derailing the careers of top prospects or the poor job by the coaches. Compare Baltimore to Tampa and it's embarrassing.

That leaves us scouring the rest of the world for pitchers and once in a blue moon we'll find one under a rock (Rodrigo Lopez, Miguel Gonzalez) or sign an International FA (Uehara, Chen). Since we're not willing to pay for premium SP, we trade for Feldman and Norris.

[wildcard]

Here is something to chew on:

Of the top 38 pitchers in the AL in Quality Starts (all have at least 12 QS), here is the breakdown of the contenders:

Det, 5 pitchers, 88 QS, Scherzer, Fister, Verlander, Sanchez, Porcello

Balt, 4 pitchers, 59 QS, Tillman, Gonzo, Norris, Chen

Bos, 4 pitchers, 58 QS, Lackey, Lester, Doubront, Dempster

Oak, 3 pitchers, 50 QS, Colon, Parker, Griffin

NYY, 3 pitchers, 43 QS, Kuroda, Pettitte, Sabathia

Tex, 2 pitchers, 38 QS, Holland, Darvish

TB, 2 pitchers, 26 QS, Price, Moore

Cleve, 1 pitcher, 17 QS, Masterson

This may point to the O's pitching problems not being in the rotation but in the pen.

[TouchemAll]

Seriously, what is the big deal here? Why do the Orioles somehow find a way to rank near dead last in ERA, K/9 and HR/9 almost every year?

27th in the league is ALL you have to know about our pitching, (Here's a hint were not very good at it)

I'll tell you one thing our starters and BP are REAL GOOD AT>>> GIVING UP THE GOFER BALLS were EXPERTS AT IT :slytf:

[webbrick2010]

Here is something to chew on:

Of the top 38 pitchers in the AL in Quality Starts (all have at least 12 QS), here is the breakdown of the contenders:

Det, 5 pitchers, 88 QS, Scherzer, Fister, Verlander, Sanchez, Porcello

Balt, 4 pitchers, 59 QS, Tillman, Gonzo, Norris, Chen

Bos, 4 pitchers, 58 QS, Lackey, Lester, Doubront, Dempster

Oak, 3 pitchers, 50 QS, Colon, Parker, Griffin

NYY, 3 pitchers, 43 QS, Kuroda, Pettitte, Sabathia

Tex, 2 pitchers, 38 QS, Holland, Darvish

TB, 2 pitchers, 26 QS, Price, Moore

Cleve, 1 pitcher, 17 QS, Masterson

This may point to the O's pitching problems not being in the rotation but in the pen.

QS is a poor statistic

the QS that Verlander, Scherzer, Lester, Price, Moore... etc are getting when the consitently go 7-8+ innings are not even remotely comparable to the QS that Chen, Gonzo, get for struggling to get through 6.

The Orioles bullpen has the most innings pitched in the American League... that's all you need to know about the quality of our starting pitching.

[PaulFolk]

Here is something to chew on:

Of the top 38 pitchers in the AL in Quality Starts (all have at least 12 QS), here is the breakdown of the contenders:

Det, 5 pitchers, 88 QS, Scherzer, Fister, Verlander, Sanchez, Porcello

Balt, 4 pitchers, 59 QS, Tillman, Gonzo, Norris, Chen

Bos, 4 pitchers, 58 QS, Lackey, Lester, Doubront, Dempster

Oak, 3 pitchers, 50 QS, Colon, Parker, Griffin

NYY, 3 pitchers, 43 QS, Kuroda, Pettitte, Sabathia

Tex, 2 pitchers, 38 QS, Holland, Darvish

TB, 2 pitchers, 26 QS, Price, Moore

Cleve, 1 pitcher, 17 QS, Masterson

This may point to the O's pitching problems not being in the rotation but in the pen.

I don't quite understand how these stats are being presented. You're not listing the actual number of quality starts for each team, you're just listing which pitchers are in the top 38 of quality starts and then adding their QS together. Your list doesn't include pitchers who have 11 or fewer QS, but those should be added to each team's total as well.

Also, Norris got most of his QS while with the Astros.

[webbrick2010]

I don't quite understand how these stats are being presented. You're not listing the actual number of quality starts for each team, you're just listing which pitchers are in the top 38 of quality starts and then adding their QS together. Your list doesn't include pitchers who have 11 or fewer QS, but those should be added to each team's total as well.

Also, Norris got most of his QS while with the Astros.

Also, where is Jake Peavy for the Red Sox??

[wildcard]

I don't quite understand how these stats are being presented. You're not listing the actual number of quality starts for each team, you're just listing which pitchers are in the top 38 of quality starts and then adding their QS together. Your list doesn't include pitchers who have 11 or fewer QS, but those should be added to each team's total as well.

Also, Norris got most of his QS while with the Astros.

There is no pride of authorship here. If you would like to add to what I have written feel free to do so.

The point here is that in this thread it has been repeated that the O's have a bunch of 4's and 5's. However, looking at QS the O's have 4 for the top 38 which is more than any contender other than the Tigers and tie with Boston.

I think that we have to look at the 5th starter and the pen for why the O's are not where that should be. Your point that Norris was a late add is very relevant but he is an upgrade for August and September.

[wildcard]

Also, where is Jake Peavy for the Red Sox??

Peavy has 11 QS on the year.

[wildcard]

QS is a poor statistic

the QS that Verlander, Scherzer, Lester, Price, Moore... etc are getting when the consitently go 7-8+ innings are not even remotely comparable to the QS that Chen, Gonzo, get for struggling to get through 6.

The Orioles bullpen has the most innings pitched in the American League... that's all you need to know about the quality of our starting pitching.

4s and 5s don't get many QS. The O's have 4 or the top 38 starters in QS says that their starter are better than that. Your point that there are pitchers in the league that go deeper in games is in not in dispute. In general you are talking about the cream of the league. I am not saying that the O's are in that class but they aren't 4s and 5s either.

The O's pen was overworked main because the O's had no good 5th starter in the 1st half, the fill-ins for Chen as 4th starter were not very good and the fill-ins for Gonzo while he was out with his blister cut even deeper. The pen took the brunt of the load. That said the pen has not respond very well blowing a lot of games that the O's won in 2012. Though DD had depth, it turned out to not be quality depth in the back of the rotation and the pen.

[FlipTheBird]

Because we can't develop our own pitching. Plain and simple. Whether its injuries derailing the careers of top prospects or the poor job by the coaches. Compare Baltimore to Tampa and it's embarrassing.

That leaves us scouring the rest of the world for pitchers and once in a blue moon we'll find one under a rock (Rodrigo Lopez, Miguel Gonzalez) or sign an International FA (Uehara, Chen). Since we're not willing to pay for premium SP, we trade for Feldman and Norris.

This. The bane of the O's since the late 90s has been developing its own arms. There's something inherently wrong with the system. It's scarcely produced anything, and it's made messes of supposed "sure things" like Brian Matusz.