190 pitches!! Are you kidding me?

[Il BuonO]

Well the guys without superior stuff gets pulled before the 4th at bat. Higher percentage of quality pitchers providing the data points.

Absolutely.

[scOtt]

This is like Dusty Baker, irradiated, for millions of years encased in a block of ice...

[video=youtube;4yzgYwHjAnk]

[Larry18]

Well the guys without superior stuff gets pulled before the 4th at bat. Higher percentage of quality pitchers providing the data points.

Mitchel Lichtman wrote a column in BP about the TTTO (Times Through The Order) Penalty. It can be found here: http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=22156

[DrungoHazewood]

I think this whole pitch count thing is a crock. Always did.

Absolutely. It's a coincidence that there seems to be a correlation between high pitch counts and injury, it's not really true. The human body is very resilient, there's no reason physical limits should apply to it.

Also, I think the correlation between driving at very high speed and crashes/death is also a coincidence. I know lots of people who've driven 100 mph on public roads and not died.

[Frobby]

Really? How many times during game threads did you and I ask why Buck was taking Tillman out when he had seemingly just had his best inning? I feel there are too many times when a guys size, history, stamina are not taken into account. Tillman should not be on the same static pitch count guideline as Chen or Gonzalez.

Where's the evidence that Tillman was treated the same as Chen or Gonzalez? Tillman threw over 100 pitches 26 times, compared to 10 for Chen and 13 for Gonzalez. He threw 110+ 12 times, compared to twice each for Chen and Gonzalez. Tillman averaged 105 pitches per start, compared to 95 for Chen and 96 for Gonzalez. Tillman's 105 pitches per start was 8th in the AL. So explain to me how he was babied.

[Can_of_corn]

Where's the evidence that Tillman was treated the same as Chen or Gonzalez? Tillman threw over 100 pitches 26 times, compared to 10 for Chen and 13 for Gonzalez. He threw 110+ 12 times, compared to twice each for Chen and Gonzalez. Tillman averaged 105 pitches per start, compared to 95 for Chen and 96 for Gonzalez. Tillman's 105 pitches per start was 8th in the AL. So explain to me how he was babied.

He was showing no signs of fatigue when he was pulled. He was throwing harder and oftentimes getting better results after 100 + pitches then he was earlier in the game.

[Ruzious]

This is like Dusty Baker, irradiated, for millions of years encased in a block of ice...

[video=youtube;4yzgYwHjAnk]

Dusty Baker managed with too many cowbells to the mush.

[Frobby]

He was showing no signs of fatigue when he was pulled. He was throwing harder and oftentimes getting better results after 100 + pitches then he was earlier in the game.

There were a handful of times I would have considered letting Tillman throw one more inning. But there's no evidence that Buck treated him the same way as Chen and Gonzalez, or had him on some "static pitch count."

[Can_of_corn]

There were a handful of times I would have considered letting Tillman throw one more inning. But there's no evidence that Buck treated him the same way as Chen and Gonzalez, or had him on some "static pitch count."

Well I am not saying he was treated the same way as Chen and Gonzalez. Buck, in my eyes, ignored signs of fatigue from Chen and Gonzalez in an effort to get more batters out of them.

I do think that O's have an upper pitch limit that they will not let pitchers exceed during normal circumstances and I think that pitch limit was responsible for Buck removing Tillman from a number of starts.

[Il BuonO]

Where's the evidence that Tillman was treated the same as Chen or Gonzalez? Tillman threw over 100 pitches 26 times, compared to 10 for Chen and 13 for Gonzalez. He threw 110+ 12 times, compared to twice each for Chen and Gonzalez. Tillman averaged 105 pitches per start, compared to 95 for Chen and 96 for Gonzalez. Tillman's 105 pitches per start was 8th in the AL. So explain to me how he was babied.

There were a handful of times I would have considered letting Tillman throw one more inning. But there's no evidence that Buck treated him the same way as Chen and Gonzalez, or had him on some "static pitch count."

Well, I disagree. C o c has stated this with examples of both Chen and Gonzalez. I think many times Buck is trying to get his guys to a number or keep them close to it instead of basing it on fatigue.

If you read the articles I posted that was the main takeaway from the guy who did the research with Dr. Andrews, that pitch counts are a guideline not a hard and fast rule.

[Barnaby Graves]

I loved pitching as a kid and really hated the 3-inning limit in my little league.

You won't find a motion as violent and mechanically unnatural than a pitch in baseball. And the human shoulder is a very complex piece of equipment and pretty freaking hard to fix. Being a baseball pitcher is like being a human compound bow that fires 100 arrows every 5 days.